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Slip And Slide

5K views 51 replies 16 participants last post by  4evrwyntr 
#1 ·
So I'm relatively new to driving my bimmer and all. I've always heard that it will skid in rain and snow but I really didn't think it was the case in rain. Over the past week it's been raining here in Toronto and I've been driving the same as I always have without any problems .. until last nite. It was coming down pretty hard around 10:30 pm. I was coming off the highway doing about 100 (km/h) onto a 4 lane street. The off ramp connecting to the street was about 90 degree turn. So I go into the curve full speed and then baaaaaam. My back side totally loses control, I skid across three lanes (thank God there was noone behind me) while still pushing hard forward. It was pretty scary yet sick at the same time since it was like one of those movie moments when a car takes a sharp turn and slides across the street :driving. I've learned my lesson though .. in rain slow down on the sharp turns :p
 
#2 ·
In cases like this - don't blame the car! :p
I've heard a lot of people blame their cars, whether it be mustang or bimmer, and how rear wheel drive sucks blah blah blah. Like you said - you've learned to drive differently. An all wheel drive vehicle if driven incorrectly is MUCH MORE dangerous through a curve than a rear wheel drive (unless it's intelligent all wheel drive). Anyway, glad to hear you're okay - maybe get some all season tires? I mean, good ones? They make a world of difference - you probably know that though.
Sorry, this came out like a rant, but wasn't meant as one.
 
#3 ·
Any car would have done that in your sitation.

You were slowing down going into a sharp corner. With the weight transferred off the back tires, it will slide really easily.

Sounds to me like you think your BMW is some kind of "super" car that can defy the laws of physics.

Glad you didn't hurt anyone being so stupid.
 
#6 ·
:confused I wasn't blaming my bimmer. Just sharing a story of my ignorance I suppose. I do have a good set of all season tires but I guess going so fast in a sharp curve will do that to any car. The best way to learn is by experience

(i still think the actual skid was pretty cool :bravo)
 
#7 ·
Originally posted by jiggs@Apr 27 2005, 12:30 PM
:confused I wasn't blaming my bimmer. Just sharing a story of my ignorance I suppose. I do have a good set of all season tires but I guess going so fast in a sharp curve will do that to any car. The best way to learn is by experience
(i still think the actual skid was pretty cool :bravo)
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You got it! Try as we might, we all make mistakes. The FIRST day after I got my m3, I overestimated my dunlop's winter traction - i.e. I estimated winter traction. In my 318i I was perfectly fine, with some all season kumho's on there which worked quite well through snow and slush.
Anyway, long story short - on ramp + way too much torque + .5' patch of snow = fishtail?!? Wow. Never expected that. I swung around about 4 times before I finally got control (I think part of the problem was also that I did not have experience with ASC... I was probably only exacerbating it - should have just shut it off) but in the process nicked my car. Yup. I is stupid too. But we learn yah.
 
#8 ·
haha, did the same thing the first week I had my car, hadnt ever driven anything but front wheel japanese cars, and going up a freeway on ramp, the back end kicked out on me, good thing I had the stability control on though, it brought it back. I can drive with it off now and get some pretty good drifts going, but at first, pushing my car to it's limits was a little weird for me.
 
#9 ·
dude i wish my car can do that
i allways try to make the rear of my car slide
i try it more in the rain then when its dry out!!!
some times when its dry out if i get lucky i can get my car to drift around right turns and left ones. its fun to try it, just be carefull.
and make sure cops are not around though
 
#10 ·
Originally posted by e30driver@Apr 29 2005, 02:43 PM
dude i wish my car can do that
i allways try to make the rear of my car slide
i try it more in the rain then when its dry out!!!
some times when its dry out if i get lucky i can get my car to drift around right turns and left ones. its fun to try it, just be carefull.
and make sure cops are not around though
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all bmws are setup for understeer from the factory... which is why it's hard to get the back end out sometimes (in lower powered ones) unless you have less traction than normal.

speaking of understeer i almost ended up in someones lawn today.
 
#16 ·
Yeah understeer is bad. It's much easier to work with oversteer in a rear wheel drive car. As a matter of fact, that's why I bought staggard tires. You gain very predictable oversteer, and it can be throttle induced.


Regardless, youg gotta know your limits. Once you do that, you can start to raise them. My latest major imit improving was relized tonight. I found the new standard for wet weather driving.

While you were skidding with all seasons, I was breaking in the single best set of high performance wet weather tires I've ever had. I've owned Bridgestone, Michelin, BFG, Nitto, Kuhmo, Goodyear, and pracitcally everything else, but if you can deal with a little noisier tire, by these. I could easily over drive my last set, but I was cruising at 85 in an absolute terential downpour a few hours ago, and I swear they were smoother than when it's dry. Absolutely unbelievable. Absolutely no hydroplaining, and our interstates suck. Gnomes everywhere.
 
#17 ·
Originally posted by jllphan@Apr 30 2005, 12:53 AM
Yeah understeer is bad. It's much easier to work with oversteer in a rear wheel drive car. As a matter of fact, that's why I bought staggard tires. You gain very predictable oversteer, and it can be throttle induced.


Regardless, youg gotta know your limits. Once you do that, you can start to raise them. My latest major imit improving was relized tonight. I found the new standard for wet weather driving.

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Yeah understeer suks but. you feel like you have control of the car but yet you are still going forward when you want to be turning LOL. if you were trying to take a 1 to 4 left (meaning a hairpin to a 45 degree angled) turn then car would start to turn but you would go through the apex and continue towards the outside of the turn. you feel as though you are turning but you keep heading straight. I have found that the ASC helps a lot with this problem if you know how to feather. I have not had and problems with understeer yet but i raced rallys. As for getting the back end to drift, heck i just turn off my ASC and it is very easy to do. With proper brake/acceleration feathering you can get em to drift fairly easily. When you say you bought staggard tires are you refering to different sizes. like my M has smaller tires in the front and larger in the rear.


Chant :bimmer
 
#18 ·
Originally posted by Chant+Apr 30 2005, 07:31 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Chant @ Apr 30 2005, 07:31 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-jllphan@Apr 30 2005, 12:53 AM
Yeah understeer is bad. It's much easier to work with oversteer in a rear wheel drive car. As a matter of fact, that's why I bought staggard tires. You gain very predictable oversteer, and it can be throttle induced.


Regardless, youg gotta know your limits. Once you do that, you can start to raise them. My latest major imit improving was relized tonight. I found the new standard for wet weather driving.

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Yeah understeer suks but. you feel like you have control of the car but yet you are still going forward when you want to be turning LOL. if you were trying to take a 1 to 4 left (meaning a hairpin to a 45 degree angled) turn then car would start to turn but you would go through the apex and continue towards the outside of the turn. you feel as though you are turning but you keep heading straight. I have found that the ASC helps a lot with this problem if you know how to feather. I have not had and problems with understeer yet but i raced rallys. As for getting the back end to drift, heck i just turn off my ASC and it is very easy to do. With proper brake/acceleration feathering you can get em to drift fairly easily. When you say you bought staggard tires are you refering to different sizes. like my M has smaller tires in the front and larger in the rear.


Chant :bimmer
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that happened to me yesterday, understeered into a 45 degree turn into my neighborhood and went off road lol
 
#19 ·
Originally posted by Chant@Apr 30 2005, 07:31 AM
If you ere trying to take a 1 to 4 left (meaning a hairpin to a 45 degree angled) turn then car would start to turn but you would go through the apex and continue towards the outside of the turn. you feel as though you are turning but you keep heading straight.


When you say you bought staggard tires are you refering to different sizes. like my M has smaller tires in the front and larger in the rear.
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Keep in mind, any car will exhibit understeer if you carry too much speed into a turn. That's why I said you have to no the limits of the car. I noticed above that some people said BMW's naturally exhibit understeer....that's news to me. They are all rear wheel drive cars, and RWD cars naturally exhibit the opposite- oversteer. Maybe they just got it backwards. That's why they make for such good driving cars: great chasis, better suspension, and RWD.

As for staggered tires, yes that's what I mean. I went with 225-45ZR17 up front and 255-40ZR17 out back. The beauty of this is that you have a very predictable amount of oversteer, and there is no guessing where your limits are. Just makes for more confident, safer driving.
 
#21 ·
Aren't BMW's fun? It isn't really hard to get ass end swing, just be verrrrryyyyyy careful! Too much, and problems can come up...like damn near shitting yerself when you miss that BIG telephone pole by inches. if you really wnat to learn, go find an abandoned parking lot. worked for me. :driving
 
#22 ·
Hmm. I know about RWD's and oversteer, but I've also heard (and experienced) some mean understeer in this here m3. I've heard that the suspensions etc/ have been tuned to give understeer - but I've been pretty much able to use throttle control to kick out the back end when necessary - in EVERY bmw I've driven. Well, okay, except the 318i when on new tires. Then you just drive into snow banks. Not that I'd know.
Granted... if you've been driving RWD all your life, I'm sure you have at least an IDEA of how to use oversteer/throttle to kick the back end out to correct a turn or take a tight one.
I hope.
:driving
 
#23 ·
Originally posted by Torque+Apr 30 2005, 09:21 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Torque @ Apr 30 2005, 09:21 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>They exhibit understeer because it's safer for your average soccer-mom driver...
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mmm, I'll have to drive one of these cars your talking about. I'm on my third Bimmer, and everyone I've owned or driven naturally exhibt oversteer.

<!--QuoteBegin-4evrwyntr
@Apr 30 2005, 09:41 AM
Hmm. I know about RWD's and oversteer, but I've also heard (and experienced) some mean understeer in this here m3. I've heard that the suspensions etc/ have been tuned to give understeer


but I've been pretty much able to use throttle control to kick out the back end when necessary - in EVERY bmw I've driven.
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Actually BMW engineers their cars to be neutral. Hence the 50/50 weight split in most of their cars. The RWD just gives them a tinge of oversteer.

That's what I was talking about earlier in this thread when I mentioned one of the benifits of staggered tires is the predictability of throttle induced oversteer. It makes you a better driver.
 
#24 ·
ahh... then... then who started this mess about the understeer? I've noticed understeer in my m3 when doing very tight high speed turns from a standstill (i.e. u-e), but that's always correctable via throttle control.
 
#25 ·
Originally posted by jllphan@Apr 30 2005, 08:56 AM
Actually BMW engineers their cars to be neutral. Hence the 50/50 weight split in most of their cars. The RWD just gives them a tinge of oversteer.

That's what I was talking about earlier in this thread when I mentioned one of the benifits of staggered tires is the predictability of throttle induced oversteer. It makes you a better driver.
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Actually, BMWs are made to understeer, it's safer to control for the average driver. And having staggered tires would make it HARDER to oversteer. You have more tire coming in contact with the ground, making it harder to make them lose traction. I was in my 528 oday in the twisties and understeering everywhere. Although the more I do it, the more I learn to prevent it. I actually made the best turn of my life today. It was FAST, in line, and it took every last grip of the tire. The blood in my face went all to the left. Anyway, accelerating while you are understeering is BAD, it does rotate the car in the direction you want it to, but you are NOT going in the line you want. You have to ease off the gas ortap the brakes to get the weight back on to the front of the car so the tires will grip.
 
#26 ·
okay i understand now
so its like when i hit a right turn(the ones at the corners of the street) at 40 and my rear end slips(oversteer rite?), dont worry i just counter steer it. so my front suspension is leaking badly now, how would i set up the suspension to be in more controll of my car, and oversteer if i want it to?
remember i drive a 1987 e30 325 (no letter) i know its weak but it has alot of touqe.

thanks

ps
sorry for thread stealling
 
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