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5-Series (E12,E28, E34, E39, E60)Chat relating to the BMW 5-Series of all generations. Specific models include: BMW 518, BMW 520, BMW 520i, BMW 530i, BMW 528i, BMW 530i, BMW 518i, BMW 524d, BMW 525i, BMW 525e, BMW 528e, BMW 540i, BMW 535i, BMW 520d, BMW 525td, BMW 525d, BMW 530d, BMW 525i/xi, BMW 530i/xi. (BMW 5-Series Forum)
This is my last post in this forum - Bill I promise.
But baby you really do show in every post just how much of a juvenile you really are, NOT ONCE did I mention having a DUH-gree + you certainly didn't have any answers to any of the other points we raised about your post - this is maybe because you were WRONG on EVERY point you made, this was picked up by me, by bill and no doubt everyone else that read your post. Also you mention there is a difference between you and me in a way which somehow elevates yourself above me - Did you actually read what I do for a living??? Alittle bit more responsibility than a bmw "technician" (of which it seems you aren't one yet anyway). at the end of the day you're just a little kid who's just got himself a 3 year diploma (the same as 1000's of others) and now you think you know everything there is to know about life, you need to enter the real world and grow up a lot you fucked up little freak.
To get back to your thread bill Why can the US build such great pieces of war equipment but still build crap cars?
Probably the reasons may be that when a new peice of equipment is required for use in the US war machine a very lengthy process is set upon to find a designer/producer who will be using all of the latest technology and the best staff. We are talking about the lives of your soldiers/pilots + the great need to be better than any other countries war machine, so it is imperative that everything is designed/made/tested to the highest standard adn the goverment will put billions into the pot to achieve this goal.
A car is for getting from A-B. In the states you seem to be happy with a car that looks good and feels comfortable, is bigger than anything else on wheels and costs less than an average weeks salary - This is what you're given. In Europe we like a little refinement, style and a vehicle that can cope with BENDS (We know you don't have many so this isn't an issue to you) + whether our cars have any of the afore mentioned traits or not, one thing we do insist upon is that they LAST. Most people buy a car expecting to get years of running from them, unlike yourselves who buy a cheapo car, run it into the ground in 3 yrs, complain it's a peice of american crap, then go buy a new one!!! AHHH the American way! is there any wonder that GM, FORD, BUICK and the likes keep on churning out this tat - they know you'll buy em! There is howerer, a marked change it seems in the way the US manufacturers think, Could this be down to the fact that over the last 10 years they have realised there are so many euro and jap (jap cars are generally closely modelled on euro cars) flooding onto the US market that they had to do something about it - buying each and every jap/euro company they could get their hands on gives them the technology to follow us in the way we manufacture - also I guess it allows them to control (to a certain extent) of the level of foreigners imported into the US (big gains for them here - you will have to buy their crap). I have no doubt the car companies are in the pockets of the oil companies and therefore want to continue churning out their big V's which manage about 10 mpg, to the masses instead of our much quicker, much smaller and much more efficient euro engines - most cars over here run on anything from a 1.0 ltr to a 2.0 ltr 4 cyl engine and many are now capable of well in excess of 50mpg, plus powerwise, some will blow away your bigassed V's, even in a straight line so lets not mention the twisties. The bigger engines here are for the rich or people like me who just like that 6cyl grunt and are willing to break themselves for the pleasure. So in short Bill, I think basically you "get what you ask for". The US society is a CONSUMER society where buying new things is high on everyones agenda.
As far as making a profit in any business which sells a product is concerned, there are two main ways to acheive high margins
1. Create a product which is perfection, high quality design & high quality manufacturing process - this is expensive and takes time + research therefore to cover costs AND make a profit you have to sell at a higher price - this generally means lower volumes are sold.
2. Create a cheaper design, use cheaper materials and sell en masse at a cheaper price/lower profit margin.
Both of the above work and produce high profits for a company, however, point 1 means utilising more outlay for design, testing etc. etc. and is much more difficult to achieve, plus a small drop in sales can mean a BIG drop in profit margin. The second point is the way I see the american car manufacturing companies behaving - a kind of "Stack em high, sell em cheap" mentality which has worked for years and will only change when the masses demand higher quality or show a willingness to look outside the US market (see above).
p.s. Schilke did contribute in so many logical explanations to these questions. He brilliantly takled the issue of corporate culture in the automotive industry.
Thanks for the compliment bill. Sometimes these kids don't give you a chance to talk intelligently... Just look at some of my other posts...
__________________ Need a new sig...
A BMW is for the soul, a Chevy is for groceries...
Schilke pleasure to hear from you and AMEN to that....I think I have to rest my case right now and right here. NO COMMENTS ANY MORE I DO GIVE UP AND TAKING THE FIFTH IS NOT A BAD CHOICE AFTER ALL!!
Thought I'd tried to answer your question properly in my last post (after the first couple of paragraphs that is) WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT I HAD TO SAY? Thought you wanted to debate the poor quality of american cars when you can achieve just good quality killing machines (bet the Iraqis wish apache was made by ford motor corp). Well I thought that's exactly what I did!
I'm getting pissed off with these forums anyway - too many fucking brain dead idiots here asking things like "I've scratched my car what can I do????" And Stuck up kids bragging about how daddy's just given them a bastard M5 for their 16th birthday - only in fucking america.
So this is Beelzibub signing out for the last time - don't bother responding I won't be coming back.
THIS IS A NO NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE ME ALONE HERE! (of course saying it as a friend) and yes you're going to stay in the debate and I will have an answer for you soon whether you like it or not. I told you many times whether we agree or disagree you always add that unique European way of thinking to the topic. In fact I personally believe disagreements are way much healthier that agreements. It does foster intellegent thinking and different angles to takle the same issue; don't you think?
Hey guys... besides the every day or so problem someone posts on this forum.. it has been a while since I've seen such a taken drawn out debate... I just wanted to thank you...
Besides the thank you.... I got a crazy idea while reading this entire topic...
Take this with a grain of salt...
Yes it is understood about the contries perception of autos... and the buying market in American cars is mainly towards the 'less money for more' senario... and the copy cat of most supplying companys of the american dream... less money for a cheap version of a higher end car...
Now for my point... I'll keep it short.. as to not confuse..
How much do you think the builders of these cars... (all of them.. from high to low end cars builders) tend to drive the populations actions... in buying trends?? Is it a 50/50 thing.. Example... "I control what I buy... " or "the market controls what I buy with the money I have"...
How much do car builders... play in our lives??? how much?? how little??
To 97 ALPINE M3
Dear LES
Alpine I think you brought up a rather exceptional point view regarding this topic. You went on to ask the following question:
How much do you think the builders of these cars... tend to drive the populations actions... in buying trends?? Is it a 50/50 thing? "The market controls what I buy with the money I have"....How much do car builders... play in our lives??? How much?? How little??
Well if your statement above hinges on the premise that advertising (i.e. the heart beat of America/Chevy; the ultimate driving machine/Bmw; the relentless pursuit of perfection/Lexus; there is only one Jeep etc) as the ultimate arbiter for increased production and desires. Then I will say: yes they do drive our actions; and absolutely.
I realize my absolute answer is going to set so much hair on fire but let us take a quick peak at the following and we’ll walk through it together:
Note: the following was triggered earlier by my friend BEEL Z of England and YOU did bring it directly to the forefront of our discussion; I’ll elaborate in a moment.
TO follow up on BEEL Z’s argument and take a step further one would suppose that people not guided by advertising would be subject to some dubious form of guidance. After all Seaman’s would say on our TV “The educated consumer is our best customer”! Catchy phrase isn’t it? But there can be no doubt that it has a deeply seated role in our economy and in the creation and shaping of our wants and needs.’ A surprisingly direct answer, I suspect.
To conclude the above paragraph, again and more directly, our family’s standard of living has become an index of our achievements; our consumption of goods has become our primary measure of our social accomplishment. But does that apply to our Internationalist forum members like BEEL Z of England and or Silverlea from New Zealand? If it does how do they perceive it? In sum: our modern promotions and marketing strategies DO EXIT TO CREATE NEWLY SUPERCHAGED DESIRES-If you wish. Now and only now it becomes clear why BEEL Z’s hair gets on fire from some spoiled little kids. I do understand!
In fact; everyday we see the same thing over and over again; no wonder then why our politicians get so happy to accept the growth criteria as a measurement of our national success. Increasing national income means, to the politicians at least, avoiding “heated seat decisions” over higher taxation on the wealthy and recalculating the whole issue of redistribution of income.
It is a Pleasure to hear from you Alpine and thanks for this excellent the input.
I think its true to say that in todays society... it is a comforting thing to feel 'high end' for people... or consumers.. as we are saying...
Companys push their adds... produce their products... there are stages of products... like the american brands.. or companies... they make to sell... the more the better... quality is taken away from price standards for the less caring and more $ minded people... then there are the BMW... Mercedes types... more quality with extra price.. but in the end.. that better social status.. most people... (I use MOST very losely here..) buy their social status.. instead of make it...
But then you have the few.. that make it.. and thus have the money to buy these things.. thus giving you a social status to imulate..
I think there are three well defined groups of social status... and I will generalize with car companies...
First.. you have the Fords... and Mercurys... and Jeeps... and Chevys.. which take the american mind set.. of a blind folded 'more for less' view...
Second.. you have the lexus... and such people.. which want the image or social status.. but cant buy it... this is also the group of well off people.. that dont car about social status... that have the mind set... of why spend my well made money on making my social status better...
Third.. you have two sub groups within this one also just like the second...you got the BMWs... Mercedes... ect... you have the many who cant exactly afford this status.. but buy it any ways.. to show it... and resemble this social status... then you have the high end.. which can get it.. and do get it... and do show this status...
This is just my mind set on the thing....
There is also another group... just for those who loves these machines... that'd be my group.. lol... and it doesnt matter on the money.. it will get spent.. and it will show... cause I love these cars...
Most people... (I use MOST very loosely here...) Buy their social status.. Instead of make it...
Then you have the high end... which can get it... and do get it... and do show this status...
No body understand your statement above more than LEXUS in fact when a car magazine reporter asked the founder of Toyota, why all Lexus models looked so similar to a Mercedes he said: "The biggest honor for an original is its copy”. During a recent conversation with MB engineer he told me: at Mercedes we don’t mind Lexus although they took a big chunk of our sales in the US markets; Lexus helps us a lot in getting our act together.
If I may add a word of warning for the undisputed superiority of German engineering: past performance is not necessarily a good guarantee of future similar results. Let us go and ask 200 MB C-Class owners what their experience with the car has been like and more than half will report significant problems. Same with BMW and the mysteriously self-destructing engine in the M3 at one point in time. These cars while great cars are far from perfect! Take a look at this one and I qoute: "Munich-based BMW contracted production of its new X3 sport- utility vehicle to Magna Steyr to avoid having to construct a plant, saving two years in bringing the vehicle to market"
To take the MB engineer’s argument a step further we may conclude that Lexus also handed Mercedes, BMW, and Audi their 1st harsh lesson when the LS-series was introduced. We the German car enthusiasts owe Lexus a debt of gratitude for forcing the German car makers to get their acts together again.
LES you statement of: First.. You have the Fords... and Mercury’s... and Jeeps... and Chevy’s.. Which take the American mind set... Of a blind folded 'more for less' view... has a very strong echo in some states and read the following quote in support to your argument:
New cars fill a state parking lot in Topeka. Despite budget troubles, the state government spent $21 million on vehicles in the recently completed 2003 fiscal year. Some 130 2002 and 2003 model-year cars valued near $2 million sit unused at this lot. And when one official was asked on national television he had this to say : "Just the sheer number of vehicles," Asher said, "it's kind of embarrassing. So LES you argument is not too far fetched.
To get back to the topic; at the end of the day it only depends how we feel the car will perform to our standards. What makes the car domestic or foreign? Is it where the car was assembled together? If so the all American Chevy is no longer considered American anymore it is built in Canada. The Honda accord is actually more American than foreign; it is built in Marysvillle, Ohio.
BMWs? Well I admit I am biased and I will bite the bullet simply because it is my best choice.
1. Germans build cars to last because they have to. Sustained speeds of 100+ mph, strict TUV inspections and 10+ year financing require a more exacting standard
2. The Japanese have never had any exports other than their technology. This puts them in a precarious position. As a result they have become experts at building upon already established themes and concepts
3. American car companies no longer focus on designing/producing/selling automobiles. They now focus on acquiring other car companies and developing niche markets abroad. The American consumer is now a world buyer. What I mean by this is that if we want the ultimate driving machine then we buy BMW, if we want luxury then we by German or upscale Japanese, if our sons and daughters need transportation and for some reason we do not want to get them a civic or sentra then we buy American.
Interestingly we (Americans) excel at making work trucks F-250, Chevy 1500, Dodge Hemi etc. (But the Japanese are excelling at this too!)
Also: Doesn't Ford now own Land Rover (true BMW designed the current Range Rover but...)
[quote=billB,Sep 29 2004, 06:24 AM]
BEEL Z
Thanks for your thought. Also Land Rover is owned by BMW. The Range rover looks sharp this year not sure of how much of a bimmer quality in it!!
BMW owned land rover till recent then ford is taking over final move in 2005 sorry for the missinfo. I qoute
The final move was the sale of Land Rover to US car giant Ford for 3bn euros (£1.85bn), finally agreed after two months of painstaking negotiations with Rover's former owner BMW
The deal will come into effect on 30 June. Ford will pay 2bn euros in cash up front and a final 1bn euros in 2005.
regards
billb
Interestingly we (Americans) excel at making work trucks F-250, Chevy 1500, Dodge Hemi etc. (But the Japanese are excelling at this too!)
Dude, don't compare a Tundra to a Ram, or a Titan to an F150. That's like saying an M3 is comparable to a FOcus SVT...
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That is why I said "work truck" F-250. Now that I think about it NASCAR truck series seems to think that the Tundra is quite comparable to an F150. Not that I advocate buying a Tundra (I am a Ford truck man myself) but I am willing to bet you within the next five years Toyota will be the points leader. Japanese manufactures have a proven ability to quickly come up the learning curve.
Before we get into comparing products like a Tundra to a Ram, or a Titan to an F150- work trucks or not- let us pause for a moment and listen to this individual screaming his lungs out with the following 2 statements:
A.Hundreds of U.S. companies have tried without success to institute Quality Circles, similar to Japanese company’s with very limited success. In fact, when they are established, everyone in the room is watching his watch to see when he can leave. Then they take notes, to look busy, and assign task to individual people which is contrary to team work. After the meeting the notes are either torn up or just forgotten. The next meeting, the same items are discussed, with no apparent progress. '...and so it continues from meeting to meeting, and finally the quality circle is no more. So much for corporate life style.
B. In addition, one plant manager who turned an unproductive U.S. factory into a profitable venture in less than three months informed his audience "It is simple. You treat American workers as human beings with ordinary human needs and values. They react like human beings" Once the superficial, adversarial relationship between managers and workers eliminated, they are more likely to pull together during difficult times and to defend their common interest in the firm's health. So much for trade unions
Can someone tell us what is wrong/right with A&B above. It looks like we have our hands full; as such the Tundra or F250 become the byproduct and the ultimate outcome of predefined set of work/corporate ethics and culture (take a look at 97 Alpine M3's article above) ! NO? YES? MAYBE?
regards
BillB
Thought I'd tried to answer your question properly in my last post (after the first couple of paragraphs that is) WHAT'S WRONG WITH WHAT I HAD TO SAY? Thought you wanted to debate the poor quality of american cars when you can achieve just good quality killing machines (bet the Iraqis wish apache was made by ford motor corp). Well I thought that's exactly what I did!
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