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5-Series (E12,E28, E34, E39, E60)Chat relating to the BMW 5-Series of all generations. Specific models include: BMW 518, BMW 520, BMW 520i, BMW 530i, BMW 528i, BMW 530i, BMW 518i, BMW 524d, BMW 525i, BMW 525e, BMW 528e, BMW 540i, BMW 535i, BMW 520d, BMW 525td, BMW 525d, BMW 530d, BMW 525i/xi, BMW 530i/xi. (BMW 5-Series Forum)
Schilke, Very interesting on the number of units produced...
I have to admit that the big three have come a long way... But the mentality/behavior will never change.
About six month ago, there was a big article on Mercedes Benz quality on the L.A Times. The thing that caught my attention was the quality issue was blamed on INTRODUCING too many new/redesign models to compete with other automakers. They even came up with a 25K car!!! Why??? $$$$
I wanted to address quality, but my last post was just way too long.
Let's speak about vehicle reliabilty.
In automotive manufacturing, reliability (the chance a vehicle will break down after you buy it) is 90% manufacturing and 10% engineering. Even thouugh we design tools and processes to be idiot proof, someone always finds a bigger idiot.
Safety recalls are a different story, they are nearly 60%engineering, 40% manufacturing.
Engineering issues tent to affect more vehicles, while manufacturing issues tend to only affect 1 shift's worth of units -- operator dependant operations. That is why we get some lemons in a batch of good cars. Gunther partied too much last night so the next day's production of BMW widgets isn't quite up to par...
The number of reliability issues that occur on a vehicle, compared to the number of safety recalls is nearly 100:1.
All these words above are trying say is that what the consumer (us) perceives as a 'good' car is what the industry calls reliability. Most reliability issues are caused by manufacturing issues.
Vehicles built by US manufacturers in the US are inherently less reliable. Why? Corporate Culture. GM wanted to compete with Japan, but because of the unions, laws, and corporate culture, they had to create a whole new company -- Saturn. Look what happened though. Even they fell prey to the GM corporate culture.
Vehicles built in the US by foreign manufacturers are inherently more reliable than domestics, however less reliable than units built in their home country. Agan, corporate culture plays a role in raising the bar, but laws and unions and american mentality tend to drag it down below units built @ home.
Reliability as a whole, for the entire global industry has risen significantly over the last few years, that is why I always comparen my 97 e36's reliabiliy against comparable 97 models.
There is certainly no Ford COntour/Tarus, Chevy beretta/malibu/Grand Am/Grand Prix that can claim 177K miles and still perform.
__________________ Need a new sig...
A BMW is for the soul, a Chevy is for groceries...
Your first point: they also own the company (Mazda) that builds Japanese style cars for those who want them! There is no competition. While I agree with the first part of your statement; I wish to point out that our automobile factories has such high production outputs; so often it becomes impossible to sell all the cars just in the USA. In order to EXIT and PROFIT, the American car industry must EXPORT. Thus in order to export you better be competitive. I.e. Convince a Japanese to buy a Pontiac Aztec instead of a Honda or A Saudi sheik to buy A Cadillac instead of a Mercedes!!
The second point of Product Development is not driven these days by the 'competition' but rather the quest for more profit. "We can make millions if we introduce a car in this market segment." No questions asked and this is the essence of the corporate culture in fact in an age of mergers and takeovers, the battle over buying domestic versus import is blurred. Take a look for yourself: Daimler-Benz owns Chrysler; Ford bought Jaguar, Volvo and Mazda. And some of General Motors' vehicles come out of Canadian factories; Honda completes the Accords in Ohio. Toyota puts together the Camry in Kentucky. Nissan's Titan and Armada come to fruition in Mississippi. Even Mercedes makes the M-class in the Mississippi. DOES THIS ANSWER THOSE WHO SAY BUY AMERICAN TO SAFE AN AMERICAN JOB? At the end of the day it is made in America by an American with Japanese parts!! Brilliant corporate strategy if I may add. Isn’t it dear Schilke??
And this one for my buddy LOS’s reference to Mercedes: They even came up with a 25K car!!! Why???$$$$ remember the movie "Wallstreet"? OF COURSE AND WHY NOT LOS? We ought to take a deep breath and read this:
“These aren't normal times for the Stuttgart, Germany-based automaker. Indeed its management has been putting out fires almost constantly since its $36 billion purchase of Chrysler Corp. in 1998. and further Daimler Chrysler on two occasions since the merger has fired Chrysler's top U.S. executive and still hasn't been able to achieve favorable financial results”. Thus to survive I would introduce a C class for $25,000 alas Schilke for mass production/profit.
To conclude this reply:
I see no logical reason why an automotive worker gets $20/hour when a worker in another industry, for the same or a similar job, gets only $7 to $10 per hour. And how, in general, does a $20/hour wage rate compare to the salaries paid nationwide to college and university graduates who spent years and years to study a profession? For God’ sake our teachers make an average of $40.000 with a UNION TOO!!
[color=red] see no logical reason why an automotive worker gets $20/hour when a worker in another industry, for the same or a similar job, gets only $7 to $10 per hour. And how, in general, does a $20/hour wage rate compare to the salaries paid nationwide to college and university graduates who spent years and years to study a profession? For God’ sake our teachers make an average of $40.000 with a UNION TOO!!
[color=gray]Ok billB why do doctors make so much?? They go to school and get the training to "practice" medicine for the rest of their lives!!! Yet you still patronize doctors when there is something wrong with your body...Why may you ask? BECAUSE YOU CANT FIX THE PROBLEM, but he MIGHT. (yes only might)...A good technician makes as much as he/she does because unlike doctors we HAVE to fix the problem right the first time or you (the consumer) get's pissed off. We too go through YEARS of training (might be a horriffic shock to you) to be able to fix these cars. And unlike doctors or other so called "professionals" we don't have the luxury of only having 2 models to work on (male vs. female) we have hundreds of lines to memorize and know inside and out!!! and figure out more every year!!! Our job is, I'm afraid, much more techincal than most AVERAGE Joe's can even IMAGINE!!!! When the problem with your body get's too much to handle you go see a doctor to maybe fix you...when the problem get's too great with your computer controlled car, you go see a PROFESSIONAL to fix it. I'm going into the BMW field this year, my minimum offer thus far has been $20.00/hr....I'm a trained BMW technitian that has worked 3 years (hard years, to keep a 4.00 GPA and 100% attendance) in school to get where I am now. I do bumper to bumper on everything from E36 to E66. And believe me it has been no picnic. So before you go making snied little comments about how il-logical it is for us "grease monkeys" make...just remember the day of the grease monkey is well in the past and the day of the technician is on the rise....as cars become more and more computer controlled and harder for the independants to work on, you will come to us...and we will be there to help you keep your car on the road and making you happy. I find it funny how people can have a million good experiences at a dealership, but they don't remember those times...they only remember the 1 time that wasn't good...
See where you get your name from 325ibaby - you're crying like a baby.
1. Try reading the posts CORRECTLY - Bill was talking about vehicle MANUFACTURE when he mentioned the wage rates and he was correct, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately this arises in every industry which employs a union base ie. use the threat of strike action to get more money from the business. I live next to the ROVER plant in birmingham, you've probably heard about their problems over the last few years (even owned by BMW for a while) these problems are caused by unionised staff demending extremely high wages to basicsally do an unskilled job any fuckwit could do! I know this as several of the people who live down my road work there, each of them are less intelligent than myself, each of them do a totally unskilled job (One for example spends all of his days attatching the seatbelt at the top with a stud gun - very skilled huh) and each of them earn a fucking site more than I do (when they were threatening to close the longbridge plant down, one worker appeared on the local news with the following statement "It's going to be impossible for me to live if I lose my job, where am I going to fiind another job paying £20000 a year for pressing a button on a welding robot???" the average wage for skilled people in this country is less than £20,000 a year so why is this shit head earning that for pushing a button??? - Now to me. I currently work in a role which requires several skills including the following: Man management, process/print management, Computer programming, General IT Support, Network/server support, health and safety management + lots more. It has taken me years to gain the skills necessary to do my job with the inclusion of on the job training, night school and bloody hard work - yet I earn less than some fucking monkey who applies a stud to a seat belt!!!! IS THAT FUCKED UP OR WHAT????
2. I left school wanting to be a mechanic. After a couple of years of messing with Cars Trucks and Motorbikes I realised that this wasn't for me as it was boring and messy. However, I gained anough experience to enable me to look after my own cars + friends and familys cars to this day (however at present I haven't got the tools, the space or the inclination to bother) - it took me 2 months to learn enough to complete a diploma in "Motor Vehicle Service Maintenance and Repair" and within a few months of turning 17 I was competent enough to diagnose and repair problems on Mercedes hgv's (Heavy Goods Vehicles) including such things as clutch swap outs. My point being is that the cars have not changed that much that a competent person can't continue to maintain and repair their own vehicle - the only difference is the mass of computer controlled components which have arrived - why do these components exist a: to allow the car to perform better and b: to allow a "technician" to easily diagnose problems by plugging a fucking computer into it - this is your idea of being skilled?????14 yrs ago I had to tune cars by ear and feel, adjusting screws and timings, today you just reboot the bastard computer and it diagnoses problems then adjusts to them. So don't feed us this bullshit that a mechanic is worth his weight in gold - without the likes of BillB there wouldn't be any computers hard/soft ware to put in the fucking cars to make your life easier. This is how much your skills are valued, BillB just totally bolloxed his car, now what did he do???? working in IT he must be a dumbass who doesn't know one end of an exhaust pipe from the other eh? So he should take his car to the likes of you to fit a new engine and repair all the other flood damage at an extremely over inflated price??? NO HE DID THE BASTARD HIMSELF and saved an absolute fortune in the running - Just goes to show doesn't it, Bill learned to remove and reinstall a 5 series BMW engine plus repair all of the electrics and diagnose all of the problems in not much longer than a week - how long do you think it would take you to learn how to configure his corporate network????
Oh and what a load of bollocks - 2 models, you serious? human beings are more diverse than any fucking car, plus the internal workings are much more complex, also a doctor is under so much more pressure to diagnose correctly the first time than a bastard mechanic - cars can be returned to the garage, humans end up in coffins. You're fucked up man, don't know how old you are, but you obviously haven't lived away from your mothers apron strings. Grow up shit head.
Bill sorry to bring such bad language to your post, I know you're of the gentleman type and you like to listen to everyones objective opinion, but this dick head just made my blood boil and his opinion wasn't objective - just very self important. So I thought I'd add a few SNIDE LITTLE COMMENTS of my own.
I think we are talking passing each others in parallel lanes. We will not meet or cross at any point. Beel z said it all..so I take the fifth on this one.
Please note: I don't like to get emotional with any subject, I try to be objective as much as possible and remember I don't expect all people to think in the same way. There will be always agreements/disagreements on any subject. otherwise Life will be boring and as such we may win each other's respect.
and please accept my best regards and thanks for your reply.
billb
Yeah, sorry for getting emotional bill but I just hate jumped up little kids with no life experience preaching about what's right and what's wrong. I also hate people that see themselves as exceptionally skilled when in fact they're not. I also hate the ludicrous prices garages charge for often the simplest of job (and even then with all this modern technology they often get it wrong - on purpose maybe???) so put it all together in one post and DAMN I'm pissed - also I'm probably a bit of an asshole myself, but hey .
Oh, and one more point I missed from baby's post - main dealers are taking the work away from the independants by introducing systems, both computer based and mechanical, which independants cannot get hold of. This is not to make sure they offer a better service but to capture the market for after sales service and repair of their product. Hence when captured they can charge what they like. However up until now people have always managed to find a way around these problems ie. BMW engine warning reset tools openly available on the market now, 10 yrs ago you either had to put up with the warnings or take it to a BMW garage.
DOES THIS ANSWER THOSE WHO SAY BUY AMERICAN TO SAFE AN AMERICAN JOB? At the end of the day it is made in America by an American with Japanese parts!! Brilliant corporate strategy if I may add. Isn’t it dear Schilke??
I would agree with you on this point, except that it only holds true when foreign manufacturers FIRST SET UP the plant. Over time, large supplier bases build up. Those Marysville Honda Accords, Elements, and Acura's are built now with a substantial amount of domestic content. THey even have a design center there that specializes in developing products specifically for US markets.
Most of the forein mfgr's you listed are all over the board in terms of how long they have been here, so I cannot comment on the domestic content.
I don't think your original statements had much to do with determining relative quality based on content percentage, but more US/JAP/German MFG.
I really don't care if the car I buy saves an american a job. I want the car I buy to have some soul, be put together fairly well (reliable) and look good.
I really think americans can make cars that 'look' good. Reference the new Mustang. Man, that car makes me wet. But will I pay 30K for a GT that gets 22mpg and be in the shop working out first run bugs? Probably not. BUt I might consider a lease, except the MPG isn't quite what I need.
What's another contemporary american car? Chrysler Crossfire? HAH!! try CLK230. Doesn't count.
Dodge Magnum? Maybe. Same issue. FIrst run bugs, crappy mpg, blah blah... Lease maybe, buy, no.
Of the people on this thread, what are your other vehicles and why did you choose them?
__________________ Need a new sig...
A BMW is for the soul, a Chevy is for groceries...
See what you started?? You got Beelzbub on FIRE!!!! Both of you guys are great!
By the way, I received the front grill (M5) for my car yesterday. It does look a little wider. I want to wax and clean that whole area prior to installation. I will install it this weekend and let you if it worth it!
Think I'll go for one of those LOS - had I not seen them I wouldn't have thought the grill change would make a difference, but it does. KEEP COOL.
Just a thought, earlier I said I would never buy american for certain reasons. I would like to retract that, in part at least. There is a car I have lusted over for a long time and would love to buy - I don't know how you all feel about this car cos I've never heard you all mention them -
Wait for it,
I'm saliviating thinking about it!
A Dodge VIPER!
I just think they look cool as F*** but don't really know a lot about them - one thing is for sure though, if I won the lottery I would be importing one before the week was out just to find out. (First order would be a new AND an e39 m5 though, + an M3CSL and possibly a 1 series for the missus + a 540i wagon and perhaps a 6series convertible, maybe even an M850i as a restoration/tuning project)
LOS cannot wait for those pics and Whenever I post on any topic I always think about this zigzaged emotional part and that is why I start with warnings about objectivity and respect to other opinion whether wrong or right. In fact I often set up the rules of the post.
Therefore an apology is in order to my friend BEEL Z of England for placing him at one odd position with 325isbaby.
so, you get a Good Enough Diploma from some no name joint...big deal this does NOT qualify you to be more than a parts swapper! At least the school I'm in is an accredited facility...perhaps you may have heard of it...Universal Technical Institute it is a world wide known facility. I don't know when YOU were working on vehicles or what kind of mechanic you were but the industry has changed ALOT...I'd bet that half of the guys that were wrenching like you dropped out of the field when cars like the 7 series started popping up on the main stream. Tell me how much your "duh-gree" taught you about fiber optics...or how to diagnose a MOST (media oriented system transport) system? what independant MECHANIC or back yard Bob will know what to do when their car breaks.... and yes this does sum up the mechanic. Diagnosis is more than just swapping parts...any one could swap parts, but to actually understand how the system works, why it does what it does and to understand WHY you are fixing it the way you are is what sets the technician appart from the Mechanic. Unfortunatly there is a BIG difference between you and me...and it boils down to more that a 2 month DUH-gree and a 3 year graduate school diploma. Technology is advancing at such a rate the independants and back-yard-bobs will be lucky if they can keep up. So as I said before, when you get overwhelmed a trained professional will be there to clean up after your mistakes.
IS there anyway to convice both of you guys to stick to the post and topic. If there are any personal matters I respectfully ask you to take it somewhere else on/outside this post.
remember I laid out the rules of this post and I expect both of you to stck to these rules. Not rules which is written on stone rather common sense rules.
Now if in any way you see it fit I am the cause of these unfortunate replies PLEASE ACCEPT MY PERSONAL APOLOGY AND END IT RIGHT HERE. NO HARD FEELINGS STICK TO THE TOPIC.
regards
billb
Please consider this a reply to your reply hoping to bring everyone into line to the topic. Please feel free to speak your mind out but within the limits of our COMMON SENSE rules. Agreed? I hope so and everyone: back to the ranch!!!!
325isbaby please allow me to clarify the following points. I will use some quotations from your reply to my post so bear with me please:
1. In your description of MDs you went on to say :They go to school and get the training to "practice" medicine for the rest of their lives!!! Yet you still patronize doctors when there is something wrong with your body.
I am not sure if I agree with you on the above; it happened that I know doctors have to do premedical schooling/medical school/residency then you start making money as a licensed physician. That much? I do know and I don't patronize MDs when something goes wrong with my body. In addition to being so healthy my own wife is a new york practicing physician!
2. A good technician makes as much as he/she does because unlike doctors we HAVE to fix the problem right the first time or you (the consumer) get's pissed off
I don't quite follow this line of argument. Did you ever encounter a cardiovascular surgeon/cardiologist who would tell his patient while laying flat on the operation table with a chest wide open (open heart surgery for example) I AM SORRY SIR I CAN NOT FIX IT RIGHT FOR THE FIRST TIME. To the contrary they do have to fix these problems now and I mean now or this patient is on God's list of recalls and this is no GM recall it is death!!!! What I am saying here I don't take any profession whether its yours mine or my wife's litely. If any I harbor nothing but respect to any and every professional for that matter.
3. we don't have the luxury of only having 2 models to work on (male vs. female) we have hundreds of lines to memorize
I know you do know much better than this since you are an educated professional. Medicine cannot be reduced to male/female dichotomy. ophthomology/urology/pediatrics/cardiovascular/pshyciatry is the same in humans whether men or women..granted ob/gyn is different but let us not go there.
4. I'm a trained BMW technitian that has worked 3 years (hard years, to keep a 4.00 GPA and 100% attendance) in school to get where I am now
absolutely! and I am proud of you; I take my hat of for you and I do know precisely what you mean. In fact I can relate to your experience. I did earn my undergraduate studies plus a masters degree in computers through hard work and I also had to maintain a good GPA to get where I am now...note another million people can share the same experience also and we ought to respect that. Simply put: we are not the only ones!!
5. So before you go making snied little comments about how il-logical it is for us "grease monkeys" make they don't remember those times...they only remember the 1 time that wasn't good...
With all due respect you last point is so wrong in that I never mentioned anything like this. When I talked about wages WITHOUT ANY REFERENCE TO GREASE MONKEYS (these are your own words not mine): I was refering to the unionized workers on the automotive assembly lines like the one's in Detriot--some has been already replaced by robots in an effort to minimize expenses. And to be exact it was not presented as my own point; it was brought to my attention by a friend or a relative (please go back to the post and recheck for yourself)
Further the wages issue was not some sort of comparative studies among different professions; it was simply brought up to further foster and stimulate both an intellectual and professional discussion to the main topic (rephrased below in capital letters) In sum your last point above is taken out of its context--see below please.
To rephrase the whole issue for the second time here; and I need your help in reaching logical answers to the following question: IF WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO PRODUCE THE F22s WHY DON"T WE DO THE SAME WHEN IT COMES TO AUTOMOTIVES?? AND AGAIN LET US STICK TO THIS TOPIC PLEEEEEEESE.
325is sorry it took that much to explain myself; I am sure you understand that I have to defend myself!
p.s. Schilke did contribute in so many logical explanations to these questions. He brilliantly takled the issue of corporate culture in the automotive industry.
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