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#1 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 07:19 PM
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I have been looking around the web, and I see alot more TC then SC, but I also hear alot that TC are not good on a car with that High of compresion. Now I don't want to just hear which has more power or anything, I'm just wondering whats better all around, best bang for the buck, most realiable, best drivability. also some sites you might know about would help too.
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#2 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 07:49 PM
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AA has a lot of good stuff.. its pricey as hell.. but if you want reliability.. they will build it for you...

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#3 (permalink) Old 11-05-2004, 10:19 PM
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so your saying turbos are better
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#4 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 12:35 AM
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Talking

For day to day driving, you want more low end torque, say below 4,000 rpm. That is where you spend most of your time anyways if you think about it. This is where a twin screw supercharger (not a Vortech or a Paxton) gives you good, solid boost, diminishing as the revs climb above 5,000.

Turbochargers mostly give you high rpm boost, above the 4,000 rpm range. This is great for drag racing where a lack of low rpm boost means you don't lose traction off the line.

There are always exceptions to both turbos and supers. Vortech and Paxton superchargers for example ramp up boost in direct proportion to rpm, so they lack low end boost. Twin turbos can solve the lack of low rpm power...


Some turbo applications, (mostly "stock" OEM Turbos in Dodge's SRT4, 4 cylinder VWs, and Audis for example) have boatloads of low rpm torque, but can peak early in the rpm range at the expense of high rpm power.


IMO, if you want a good street car, that can light the tires off the line (without dumping the clutch) then a twin screw supercharger will make your engine feel like a much bigger engine; like a 545i or 750i for example.

Most aftermarket turbos give more boost at higher rpms, (higher rpm torque means more BHp which sells more turbos) this kind of turns your engine into a high rpm V-tech engine with less low rpm torque and Bhp.


But then, opinions vary...
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#5 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 12:55 AM
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this man knows his stuff.

in lamens terms.

a turbo will give you a quality ride day to day, but you will only find the extra boost reliable at higher rpms and faster speeds. not very practical for a daily driver.

the super on the other hand, will give you the low end power and can pickup quick if your just crusing along in traffic and want to get around someone.

i cast my vote for the super, as he said.

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#6 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 01:03 AM
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Thanks EcianIce!

I even forgot the dreaded TURBO LAG; which even factory rides like the turbo VWs have, so Car and Driver says.
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#7 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by docrobot@Nov 6 2004, 12:03 AM
Thanks EcianIce!

I even forgot the dreaded TURBO LAG; which even factory rides like the turbo VWs have, so Car and Driver says.
[snapback]225510[/snapback]
i thought that the newer turbos virtually eliminate turbo lag......?

and also superchargers are more reliable and easier on ur engine because they produce less boost because some of the power is taken away, because the engine is what turns the supercharger, turbos use eshaust gases to spin the turbine, so you don't loose boost, but also they create some back pressure in the exhaust, and

most superchargers about have like 8psi boost and turbos most around 17 or so psi, (correct me if i'm wrong) but you can change this for whatever you want, if you get a turbocharger you have to reinforce the engine internals as well don't go for some cheap bolt on kit, AA is the best for turbo kits as far as i know, but if you want reliable easy on your engine power, i would reccomend the supercharger like everyone else not to mention the supercharger kits are a lot cheaper than turbo kits

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#8 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by SHAHABM3+Nov 6 2004, 08:40 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SHAHABM3 @ Nov 6 2004, 08:40 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-docrobot@Nov 6 2004, 12:03 AM
Thanks EcianIce!

I even forgot the dreaded TURBO LAG; which even factory rides like the turbo VWs have, so Car and Driver says.
[snapback]225510[/snapback]
i thought that the newer turbos virtually eliminate turbo lag......?

and also superchargers are more reliable and easier on ur engine because they produce less boost because some of the power is taken away, because the engine is what turns the supercharger, turbos use eshaust gases to spin the turbine, so you don't loose boost, but also they create some back pressure in the exhaust, and

most superchargers about have like 8psi boost and turbos most around 17 or so psi, (correct me if i'm wrong) but you can change this for whatever you want, if you get a turbocharger you have to reinforce the engine internals as well don't go for some cheap bolt on kit, AA is the best for turbo kits as far as i know, but if you want reliable easy on your engine power, i would reccomend the supercharger like everyone else not to mention the supercharger kits are a lot cheaper than turbo kits
[snapback]225598[/snapback]
[/b][/quote]


Sorry, but I've got to step in and correct some things SHAHABM3 said.

1) Turbo lag has nothing to do with technology. It isn't somthing we can just easily, "correct." Turbo lag exists becuase in order to create boost, a turbine has to be spun at extremely high rates within the turbo system. How is that turbine spun? From exhaust gases. Exhaust gases powerful enough to spin the turbine at adequate speeds take time to build up, which is why turbos kick in around 4k in most turbocharger systems. Turbo lag can be combatted though. A great example is the twin turbocharged Toyota Supra. They have 2 turbos, one is small, and the other one is larger. The smaller one is used at lower engine speeds (smaller turbines are easier to spin than larger ones), and it spools relatively quickly. Then, when the speed of the car gets high enough, the other turbo kicks in (only larger turbos can handle higher boost, you are going to be boosting 20lb on a tiny turbo).

2) Although with most cars I have seen, it is true that superchargers produce less boost, I don't think this is becuase S/C's are powered by the engine, I think it's because of their mechanical construction. I could be wrong on this one though.

3) To say most S/C's boost 8psi and most turbos produce 17psi is just plain wrong (sorry, I don't mean to be mean!). Most people who buy turbo systems for their N/A cars leave them at around 8psi; that seems to be the comfortable level for non upgraded internals. My old 300zx (before I modded it) was running around 7-8lb, and that was a turbo'd car stock. I think WRX's run somewhere around 12-15. Evo8's run about 19. It completely depends on the car and the user configuration as to how much boost is being run.

In my experience S/C's/Turbos are neither more reliable than each other...I would think it would be more dependent on how much boost they are running...although to be honest I don't know.

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#9 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 10:30 AM
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good amount of info so far, so i know who makes a good turbo kit, who makes a good supercharger, they do look cheap from what I see, so pretty much supers are cheaper, and have a better powerband, but turbos have more peak, also can i just bolt on a AA turbo, or do you have to lower the compresion of the motor someohow,
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#10 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ding@Nov 6 2004, 09:30 AM
good amount of info so far, so i know who makes a good turbo kit, who makes a good supercharger, they do look cheap from what I see, so pretty much supers are cheaper, and have a better powerband, but turbos have more peak, also can i just bolt on a AA turbo, or do you have to lower the compresion of the motor someohow,
[snapback]225633[/snapback]
Lowering the compression of the engine would be kind of counterproductive wouldn't it? The point of FI systems is to RAISE compression =P

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#11 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 10:41 AM
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I just noticed that AA has a supercharger as well, so far I like the looks of that cause its cheaper and from what people say a super charger is more what I want. http://www.m3motorwerks.com/products/descr...php/II=124/PA=0
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#12 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deloriant+Nov 6 2004, 09:24 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Deloriant @ Nov 6 2004, 09:24 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Quote:
Originally posted by SHAHABM3@Nov 6 2004, 08:40 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-docrobot
Quote:
@Nov 6 2004, 12:03 AM
Thanks EcianIce!

I even forgot the dreaded TURBO LAG; which even factory rides like the turbo VWs have, so Car and Driver says.
[snapback]225510[/snapback]


i thought that the newer turbos virtually eliminate turbo lag......?

and also superchargers are more reliable and easier on ur engine because they produce less boost because some of the power is taken away, because the engine is what turns the supercharger, turbos use eshaust gases to spin the turbine, so you don't loose boost, but also they create some back pressure in the exhaust, and

most superchargers about have like 8psi boost and turbos most around 17 or so psi, (correct me if i'm wrong) but you can change this for whatever you want, if you get a turbocharger you have to reinforce the engine internals as well don't go for some cheap bolt on kit, AA is the best for turbo kits as far as i know, but if you want reliable easy on your engine power, i would reccomend the supercharger like everyone else not to mention the supercharger kits are a lot cheaper than turbo kits
[snapback]225598[/snapback]

Sorry, but I've got to step in and correct some things SHAHABM3 said.

1) Turbo lag has nothing to do with technology. It isn't somthing we can just easily, "correct." Turbo lag exists becuase in order to create boost, a turbine has to be spun at extremely high rates within the turbo system. How is that turbine spun? From exhaust gases. Exhaust gases powerful enough to spin the turbine at adequate speeds take time to build up, which is why turbos kick in around 4k in most turbocharger systems. Turbo lag can be combatted though. A great example is the twin turbocharged Toyota Supra. They have 2 turbos, one is small, and the other one is larger. The smaller one is used at lower engine speeds (smaller turbines are easier to spin than larger ones), and it spools relatively quickly. Then, when the speed of the car gets high enough, the other turbo kicks in (only larger turbos can handle higher boost, you are going to be boosting 20lb on a tiny turbo).

2) Although with most cars I have seen, it is true that superchargers produce less boost, I don't think this is becuase S/C's are powered by the engine, I think it's because of their mechanical construction. I could be wrong on this one though.

3) To say most S/C's boost 8psi and most turbos produce 17psi is just plain wrong (sorry, I don't mean to be mean!). Most people who buy turbo systems for their N/A cars leave them at around 8psi; that seems to be the comfortable level for non upgraded internals. My old 300zx (before I modded it) was running around 7-8lb, and that was a turbo'd car stock. I think WRX's run somewhere around 12-15. Evo8's run about 19. It completely depends on the car and the user configuration as to how much boost is being run.

In my experience S/C's/Turbos are neither more reliable than each other...I would think it would be more dependent on how much boost they are running...although to be honest I don't know.
[snapback]225625[/snapback]
[/b][/quote]


sorry i just have to step in and show how deloriant completely didn't read what i had to say, and what i said is not "just completely wrong"

!) sorry i mislead anyone, i was quoting Gale Banks on something he said on Horsepower T.V. a few months back, what i forgot is that he was talking about his company's twin-turbo V8, and yes i know what a twin turbo is, and the bigger and larger turbo, and all that

2) you said it's not how they're powered it's how they're constructed, isn't how they are powered part of the construction, i think i know what you meant though, the internals are different, we are both obviously not experts so this question goes unanswered

3)clearly i sated most have that much boost, and you reiterated my point for me thanks bud, and then i clrealy said you can change that to whatever you want, you can run whatever amount of boost you want

and yes reliablilty does depend on the amount of boost not which kind of air-compresor you use, but then it's also ok to say that superchargers are more reliable because pretty much all supercharger kits make less boost than turbocharger kits,

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#13 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 12:38 PM
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technology = lighter and stronger turbines = much easier to spin up. We'v sorta reacheda plateou in lightness vs durability tho.


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#14 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 01:13 PM
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If the engine has a very high compression ratio when it's N/A you sometimes have to lower it when you put boost to it or you could damage it.

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#15 (permalink) Old 11-06-2004, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gulelin@Nov 6 2004, 12:13 PM
If the engine has a very high compression ratio when it's N/A you sometimes have to lower it when you put boost to it or you could damage it.
[snapback]225729[/snapback]
What exactly is the point of lowering your engine compression? The point of FI is TO INCREASE compression. Lowering engine compression = counterproductive.

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