Suspension Hints - BMW Forum - BimmerWerkz.com
3-Series (E36) Chat relating to the BMW 3-Series from 1992-1999. Autodoodad Specific models include: BMW 316i, BMW 318i, BMW 318iS/ti, BMW 320, BMW 323, BMW 320, BMW 324, BMW 325, BMW 328.

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#1 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 05:01 AM
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ok well, i got the idea for this thread after i posted on the "Dinan Suspension" thread. ok here are some quick hints that me and alot of friends used to do for extreamly nice handling, and i promise some seem very unorthodox but trust me, first of all,lol cutting springs is NOT that ghetto. It can save you sooo much money, and be just as good if not better than some mid range suspensions. Try getting front springs from a heavier car, something with a bigger engine, and then cut. it makes a big difference. im not a cut spring fan, but i run them , and im dispelling the myth right here and now. the second thing, is lowering your car. dont even play with sways and strut bars yet. lowering will make a huge difference that you cannot appreciate with sways and struts. hell they dont even fully work, until you go lower. when you go low, your bringing the vehicle closer to the ground, so therefore it has a lower center of gravity. the vehicle will be more hesitant to rock to the sides when cornering. this is good for maintaining control and not looking stupid, but downside is in the rain. sway is good in the rain, so a stiff suspension will make you slide, so be careful. you dont have to slam like i did, but just go lower. plus wheel gap if fucking ugly anyways, make them TUCK! after you have done these things, you can then try sways and strut bars. but beware it will make it even tighter! one of the last but MOST important things you can do if you are HARDCORE, is with steering. now, some people say this is very dangerious or unorthodox, but they live in a dream world, and drive minivans. we are young, and thats what its about lol. we can have leather seats and gay techtronic shifting when we are old and fat and lazy. first , i have seen guys tighten the steering rods on the cars to make less play for turning the wheel. this will make the wheels turn faster and have more repsonse to the wheel. this is very dangerious, and you MUST know what you are doing. the easier way to make it more responsive than you could ever imagine, disconnect your power steering. thats right folks, no more power steering. fuck it. get strong. steer that bitch. yes it sucks at low speed in parking lots, but you will adjust to it very fast. also you get like 2-6HP from disconnecting it :P anyways lol, the response you will feel is amazing. DO NOT do this unless you have lowered first. you must have dropped your car you will are really increasing your chances of eating shit. i cannot even imagine what a non dropped car would do if you pulled the wheel with no power steering. anyways, also disconnecting this takes away the chances of oversteer and some understeer. when you move the wheel, the car moves with you, no more play on the wheel. NONE. it will move like it was intended to. just give it a shot, i know it sounds crazy, but let me know how it goes. we have done this to all of our cars, and it is wonderful. hell my car didnt even have it STOCK!!!! granted i drive a honda for now, bmw isnt that much of a difference, just in price, thats it. suspension is suspension and motors are motors., trust me. if you drop your car , you might want to pay attention to your camber. if you let this go unchecked, you will start going through tires kinda fast. it all depends on the degree of severity of your camber, but it can be bad. i go through new front tires about every 3 - 4K miles. i camber VERY bad, like -7degrees. negative camber can also increase your handling, but save it for the track, trust me tires get too expensive. try setting negative camber like 3-7 degrees in the back, the wheels will slant inward like this / --- \
it will help ya but like i said for the track only or unless you just wanna be hardcore

well guys , i hope these hints help ya out, and maybe you really can start taking advantage of these wonderful handling cars if you havent already. btw, just cause hondas are cheaper, doesnt mean they suck hahaha. i would challenge any car including an m3 on this forum through some turns, and i bought my car for a measly 3K.
BE CAREFUL IN THE RAIN. all of these have a tendancy to make you spin or lose it in the rain in turns. also for some reason, a couple of friends and i have noticed increased hydroplaning when you go lower. if you are worried about this, then dont do it or do like i did, make yourself hydroplane alot, and you wont care anymore. just let off the gas and you'll be ok lol, dont hit the brakes haha. anyways, try and and post and tell me how it went.
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#2 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 09:17 AM
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before anybody follows this advice, please check it out throughly. I have never done any of the above stated things, but have thought about doing a few things, such as cutting M3 springs to fit my car. I have heard mixed responses from people, my mechanic said it would be ok to do. But people here like furious said no way. Also check out a thread that was up abot a week or two ago about disconnecting/removing powersteering.
just do your research on this keeping in mind that what may work for some cars, won't work for all cars.

However, do pay attention to the part about sliding in the rain. I don't think anybody has posted that before but it can be more of a problem with a tuned suspension depending on the tires that you use.
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#3 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 11:54 AM
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Hydro planing is an effect of negative camber.

And another thing that was not said. I don't care how much money you pour into your suspension, you slap some Wally world tires on there for 40 bucks a pop the car is going to handle worse than your mom's minivan. Tires make the car, tire pressures do even more.

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#4 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 03:41 PM
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very well said! tires make the car. i have noticed that Khumo tires excel VERY well in the rain. they may not have the best dry grip out there, but they beat almost all others in the rain by far. Also i agree that these tricks will not work for all cars. The bigger your car, probably the less some tricks like power steering will work, and may cause dangerious situations. If you drive somethign small, just try this. Pop the belt off, and take her for a spin. dont try any advanced manuvers, just get the feel for it. next try a gentle but sweeping turn, and push on the speed a little bit but only after you have gotten the feel for it. the vehicle reponse will be the biggest gain here. just be careful guys. like i said for hardcore only, but if you are looking for that next step, this is it. i will be trying this hopefully in a few months when i will try and land myself in a 318Ti haha.
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#5 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 03:52 PM
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to quote a very un wise man " suspensions are suspension and brakes are brakes. so you mean that front heavy honday of yours displays the same chassis dynamics as a nearly perfectly 50/50 weright distributed BMW? and your equal lenght control arm front setup is the same as the setup on a BMW? Boy pull your h4ead out your ass and get a grip. the reason your rear wheels have negative camber like that is beacusae you screwed up the suspension dynamics. camber plates for a honda? I dont think so.... son, i have worked on more cars in my life than you have likely sat in. I used to do race prep for vintage Porsches. now say you are sorry to all the nice folks on this list that think it is a good idea to go cutting up expensive springs on their BMWs becuase you lied and told them it is a good thing. If you want to be a fool, that is your business, but dont tryb to sell your crap to the innocent masses. Oh andf the reason your are hydroplaning is not becuase you have lowered your car it is becuase you have lowered your car and nhot corrected the camber, there is no #$%^& contact patch left any more dipshit.
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#6 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 09:11 PM
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well i didnt tell them to cut, its just that some people worry so much about springs and blah blah, and if they are not racing and purley want to go low, then i say what the heck. expensive shmensive. there are some expensive parts in our suspensions too hahaha, we have a 60 dollar bolt holding almost the entire assembly, so we generally tend to be careful with it. i dont recomend to anyone that they cut if they are serious. and as for my camber, yes i know it is incorrect, and i need my plates, but i dont mind. rain driving is fine now with the new khumos, but the advanatges i see on drive pavement i wouldnt trade. all im saying is that since i have been readin on this forum, most seem like "dealer" kids, take everything to the dealer, and pay out thier asses for something they dont understand. im just suggesting other alternatives. for instance, so many kids waste money on a full camber kit for honda, when they dont even take a look for themselves and realize in the back, you can "shim" with washers. hell thats all the camber kit does lol. i would just like to see more kids thinking for themselves instead of buying like "dinan" suspension because it sounds cool or has a respectable name. i dont doubt that maybe it is very awsome, but the one guy was asking about sways and stuff, and i dont think he had even dropped his car yet. as for my suspension setups, you are correct. we are not 50/50. my setup is probably not even close, but that doesnt mean that it works with the same respects or is shitty because its honda. i started posting on this board because im looking at 318Ti's and i wanted some insight as to some work that can be done. i noticed a general lack of good knowledgable topics, so i joined and thought i would just give some insight. in no way am i an expert mechanic, or autocross driver. im just giving some hints that really helped in our world and some other cars as well. like the powersteering, i noticed a huge decrease in oversteer when running without power steering, plus the vehicle responds much faster. maybe i just forgot that bmw's are rich cars or something, and that disconnecting these things is "unorthodox". my apologies if any of that above information is incorrrect, and for the record, i dont support cutting if you are serious. also, the bashing of character was a little uncalled for lol. we can all have a technical and knowledgable conversation without talking shit.
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#7 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 09:36 PM
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Unfortunately the work involved to remove the power steering pump on the average e36 isn't worth it. The effort would be quite a bit, I know you're saying that, and most people don't want to go through that.

As is the steering provides excellent feedback, plus everything but the A/C is connected with a single serpentine belt and it's difficult to find a custom serpentine belt to fit.

I don't get it. Everyone is taking shots at perfectly legit statements here. What's everyone on the forum got against a new guy that knows something even if he doesn't have a bmw yet?

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#8 (permalink) Old 08-05-2004, 10:11 PM
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I wasn't taking shots at him if you were reffering to me, in this topic or the other one. Alot of that stuff will work with hondas and even toyotas. My back ground as some can recall are in celicas. But with a BMW it really isn't worth going cheap on. The cars are too balanced to not wait another month and then get a good quailty part that will maintian the balance of the car.
astral_tx- have you given a BMW a test drive yet? You'll find the ti to be about the same acceleration wise as your lowly civic (not a put down but the ones with hp in the low hundred) DX i think, or maybe LX (I'm not up on honda trim like I used to be). However, what you will find is that where it can't really take the honda very well in a straight line, put the two on an auto-x course or a twistie road and the ti will run away from it. Where the civics, accords and crxs push with the pedal down during turns and theres not much you can do with the FWD besides let off and get back on as soon as you can, you can use the gas with the ti and start to pull away earlier. Like celicas, BMWs aren't known for their staight line speed. They could all be a little faster, but where they exccel is handling. Once you test drive one you'll see what I mean. For looks sure cut the springs, but most of the people here are more about performance. You said that lower is better always. But with cut springs you lose a lot of the handling of the spring, sometimes even making the car unsuitable for regular driving, unless you only cut a small fraction of a coil. Alsp cutting BMW springs isn't a great idea because it's got a progressive coil at the top... and the bottom to? I'm not 100% about the bottom. Don't worry though... I came to this board thinking about things like advancing the timing and such... only to find out that we have timing chains, and an ECU controled timing....
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#9 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 12:49 AM
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I have a friend that drives some sort of a honda, and he started out by chopping, and it rode like shit and bottomed out alot. Eventually he bought the tightest lowest springs he could find. Now the car bounces because the spring is too stiff, and the numbnut didn't replace the shock to control the new spring.

Ya, lowering is cool, I wouldn't mind being an inch or two lower, I like the *tucked* look. But its a bmw, if you go with lower springs you might as well replace the shocks with H&Rs. The ugliest thing in the world is a BMW that can't handle worth shit!

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#10 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 03:14 AM
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yes "thekid" i agree with you totally. for serious, cut is not the way to go. i should not have mentioned that one i guess lol. well you are right that most hondas and FWD cars dont push through turns but that all also depends on the setup and driver. i can push so hard through turns sometimes that it scares me almost. FWD cars have an advantage in this arena in some ways because you can always feel before you lose it. letting off the gas completly regains control of the car in most situations. RWD gets sideways very fast and then you must control with the gas, because hitting the brakes will cause you to 180. i am ver familair with the drift scene as this is where i would really like to take my hobbie. then there is the mid-engine, and when these loose it, you can almost kiss it goodbye. I must go and test drive a Ti, but the only one that i know, has an M3 motor in it, and if i drive that, and then buy one, things will never be the same, lol. I hope to see some good topics on here, because the shit about side markers and lights is kinda getting old. i want to see someone do some serious work here. hopefully when and if i get my Ti, i can be one of the first to rip into that bitch, because a motor is a motor, bmw, porsche, honda, its all the same. except those damn rotarys, i stay away from that, but thats a different topic. well thank you for pointing out my flaws in my previous posts, and thanks for the insight as to why im/was hydroplaning. i dont do it nearly as bad, so im thinking it was those shitty tires i had. lol, i run used tires on my car, because we have a great used tire shop here. 30 bucks each, i swear these things are brand new hahaha. tires make or break!
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#11 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 06:41 AM
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Whomever came up with the idea of disconnecting the power steering, that is poor advise on all levels. Not only do you lose control you are now driving the hydraulic fluid in the steering rack back to the pump eventually ruining the steering rack.Also have you ever heard of hydraulic lock ? I didn't think so. Well in effect it's when you try to move a fluid too rapidly and it will refuse to flow and lock up.
This would be a bad thing if you have to react quickly in a driving situation.
The steering wheel willl freeze and you will saying some expleative words on you way to your death ,, not a good way to go IMHO !

It's hard to believe the rediculous advise given here sometimes !

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#12 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 09:47 AM
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ok so lets see... the guy admits that cutting springs is not a great solution, he now knows why he hydroplanes, now he understands why no one will be disconnecting the power steering on their BMW, still has no clue about how the physics of a spring work, talks smack about how hard he can corner and that his car scares him (it scares him becuase it is a lousy setup with poor balance and unpredicatble handling in my opinion) Thinks a front heavy honda handles and has suspension set up equal to a BMW, and someone tell me how his origial post in view of all of this is useful in any way. By the way, this guy can't wait to tear into his motor on the BMW.. Astral TX if you go "tearing" into a BMW I6 motor and decide you want to pull the camshafts.... let me know first so i can tell you how not to break them, since 95 percent of non BMW specif mechanics would break a one and then claim it was defective and send your head out to a BMW specialty shop under the guise of " waiting for parts"

As to your awesome handling car... i bet my 1984 Z28 Camaro (sold last year ) would spank your honda silly on any raod or autocross course. Hmmm, I didn'yt cut my springs, but rather had progressivly wound shorter springs and KYB shock struts, all poly bushings, strut and sway bars, a bit of negative camber dialed in and 1.03 on the skidpad ....

no my BMW does not handle quite that well (yet) but it is a much more civilized ride, and its balance is much better. drive a car with near perfect weight distribution and you will understand.

and yes I miss the 400 plus ponies of of my 383 stroker motor.
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#13 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 11:07 AM
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not to be an instigator in this but NYC, when is the last time you saw a 318ti with an I6 in it (though it can be swapped)???


I don't agree with disconnecting the power steering in a BMW at all because it provides excellent response and corners amazingly well. I don't get much under or oversteer with my 318. However, I do agree with Astral in some aspects. There is nothing wrong with taking springs, and cutting an inch or two off them, so long as they all still maintain similar spring rates. That means you do have to do some precision cutting. This WOULD allow the suspension to remain balanced. The smart thing would be to throw some better KYB or Bilstein shocks to handle the lower stance, but it wouldn't be a bad thing.


Disconnecting the power steering works really well on a CRX because it is such a front heavy car despite being a VERY light car. I have pretty good experience with CRXs as my cousin had one all hooked up and SLAMMED. It really did handle VERY well, but thats what they are made for as well.

There is no need for anyone to bash Astral for his ideas. Thats the point of his forum...its HIS opinion and what he knows that works, at least for his CRX. He wants to try similar things with the Ti, which hell, very well may work. How many of us have seen a slammed Ti? I think the theory is interesting with cutting the springs. But Astral, do be very aware that the Ti will be a lot different than the CRX...

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#14 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 11:29 AM
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not to be an instigator in this but NYC, when is the last time you saw a 318ti with an I6 in it (though it can be swapped)???

True enough.... But there is something very wrtong with chopping an inch or two off of springs... like how they sit ion the spring perch, like the fact that progressivly wound springs will no longer be progressive, like the fact that a suspension with unequal length control arms will need to be modified so that the wheels are perpendicular to the ground and dont look like so many of these slammed rice rockets with the wheels at absurd camber angles, going through tires like every three months and NOT handling very well. And the last i checked, eveyyone was entitlesd to asn opinion, but telliong people to do something and saying it worked on X car and theorizing that it would work on Y car is not having an opinion... it is hopeful guess (and in this case a wrong guess based on his original post) In all fairness, there are lots of folks on this board that have no clue about stuff, but atleast they usually state that they dont or that they think or that it is their opinion. That is cool (well it isn't but at least others know from where they are coming and can form their own conclusions) I spent like 2 months reading nearly every post on this and other forums to learn about my 325, having come from an american iron and a Porsche background. cars may be cars but performance mods aint performance mods... I can get 60 hp out of a small block chevy for about 700 bucks and increase its handling prowess like three hundred percent for about the same green. It don';t work that way in bimmerland boys and girls. It is about learning and knowledge, not posting nonsense
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#15 (permalink) Old 08-06-2004, 12:40 PM
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I totally agree with you. I have had my 328is for 4 years and just now I'm going to get into some significant mods. Over the next few weeks months I will transform this car into a very viable track/steetcar.
I intend to modify the handling , engine performance and brake systems through careful research and educated decisiions. You are right it takes a great deal of money to better the performance of a BMW from stock.That's why research careful spending will result in the greatest gains.

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