318vs325 - BMW Forum - BimmerWerkz.com
3-Series (E36) Chat relating to the BMW 3-Series from 1992-1999. Autodoodad Specific models include: BMW 316i, BMW 318i, BMW 318iS/ti, BMW 320, BMW 323, BMW 320, BMW 324, BMW 325, BMW 328.

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#1 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 12:41 PM
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What is their ACTUAL weights?

What are the differences?
What do they have the same?
Which would win in a race at nurburgring? *and dont say the better driver*

What was the purpose of building the 325 (from bmw)
What was the purpose of building the 318 (from bmw)
???


btw i am talking about the 1993 vs the 1993 (just for comparison purposes)
both 4dr
both manual


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#2 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 01:04 PM
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Differences:

325i has different interior packages available to it, including wood trim, higher function OBCs, power seats, and has an amped audio system w/8 speakers standard. All of these come as on option on the 318.

318 is identical in everyother regard to the 325i's interior. Both offer the exact same cabin space, storage, and available luxury appointmens.

Mechanically, the 325 obviously has 2 more cylinders. The oil pan and other fluid resevoirs are increased in size compared to a 318 to compensate. The 325 also utilizes a different drive shaft and differential that is larger. Both use a single exhaust system, however the 325 has a y pipe that opens up as the revs increase to relieve backpressure at 3500 RPM, thus the dual exhaust tips.

All body parts are identical.

As to who would win in a race is not measurable, because it is a subjective question that can ultimately only be solved by someone doing it.

BMW built both cars as they have been building them since the 80s. The names spring from tradition, and in this case, market recognition. Each served specific purposes as well.

The purpose of BMW building and selling the 325 was to attract those who had more money to spend and wanted a more luxerious car standard. Neither the stock 2.5 or 1.8 are speedy, and neither served to fulfill that goal. If a buyer truly bought the car becasue they wanted a speedy car, then the 2.5 would be a great dissapointment. I say speedy deliberately. The 325 and 318 are both fast, but do not accelerate as quickly as other cars.

The 318 was built to serve those who wanted the reliability of a BMW, as well as the handling, but also was for those who prefer to save on gas mileage or don't want to pay the insurance on a higher prices 6 cyl. In other areas of the world people care more about such things and don't care about how fast a car goes compared to it's other line-ups, and as a result BMW also offers a 316, but do not offer it here. They also offer a 320, but with the added weight it is actually slower than a 318.

To disregard the 318 as a BMW is the same as disregarding the current 325, saying that only a 330 deserves the title of being a real BMW.

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#3 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 04:10 PM
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I don't know what that particular track looks like, however if you take a look at a local track here like Shannonville's Fabi circut, a 318 could easily either keep up or pass a 325. If there are more straights then turns and where there is a lot of high speed driving like as Mosport, then a 325 would win. When you talk about track driving, it's all about weight, not engine size. Who cares about low end torque? Track driving is all about high revs, that's why 4 cyl's are used as a base for a lot of track cars.

When I was at Shannonville less than a month ago, I was on the track with my buddy's 325. I actually kept right on his ass the whole time. It was difficult and dangerous to pass in the corners so I kept behind him the whole time. He caught up a little in the straights (it was a very short straight), then I caught up to him again the corners. That's why 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speeds don't mean a thing. You're always at higher revs and higher speeds on the track.

El Presidente is right, it doesn't matter what people think, someone would have to try it themselves. On May 30th I'm going to Shannonville again and we're going to have someone at the pits with a lap timer. This way you'll know the 318's lap times and the 325's lap times. However, there is still the inconsistencies of the different drivers skill. So unless I get to drive both cars, there's no real way to tell.

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#4 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 06:03 PM
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We have a 318 with 115HP and a 143HP one in the Netherlands; I guess you have meant the first one, because the 143HP came available in 1995-1996......

Between those is a weight difference from 100 kg (= 220 lbs). This means a higher weight of 7%. Rather of this the stock 325 should be faster than the stock 318. At the (old) Nürnbergring the 325 would win easily. This track has a length of 22 kilometres with enough straight lines. There is also no measurable higher corner speed between the two (also stock 325 has a stiffer suspension).

On normal circumstances the 325 is faster, also on track (don't forget, I'm talking about STOCK bimmers) at the simple reason of a better HP - weight value. But, what Autotechnica is saying about his race against his friend can't be a point in this topic, because his car isn't stock anymore!!

The last point to think about: why would BMW built cars that are more expensive, with bigger engines, more HP and also should be slower??

BTW: Autotechnica should win easily from me on his race track because of weight reduction and stiffer suspension.......

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#5 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 07:01 PM
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Very nice car Autotechnica. Do you have any bigger pictures of it?
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#6 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dutchbmw@May 17 2004, 05:43 PM
We have a 318 with 115HP and a 143HP one in the Netherlands; I guess you have meant the first one, because the 143HP came available in 1995-1996......

Between those is a weight difference from 100 kg (= 220 lbs). This means a higher weight of 7%. Rather of this the stock 325 should be faster than the stock 318. At the (old) Nürnbergring the 325 would win easily. This track has a length of 22 kilometres with enough straight lines. There is also no measurable higher corner speed between the two (also stock 325 has a stiffer suspension).

On normal circumstances the 325 is faster, also on track (don't forget, I'm talking about STOCK bimmers) at the simple reason of a better HP - weight value. But, what Autotechnica is saying about his race against his friend can't be a point in this topic, because his car isn't stock anymore!!

The last point to think about: why would BMW built cars that are more expensive, with bigger engines, more HP and also should be slower??

BTW: Autotechnica should win easily from me on his race track because of weight reduction and stiffer suspension.......
I don't know which engine had 143HP but I never heard of it.

I've heard of the M40 which was 108HP, I believe there was an M43 as well (correct me if I'm wrong) which was 115HP and the M42 and M44 which were both 138HP.

Here in North America we only have the M42/M44 engines which are both 138HP (also know as "318is" in Europe).

My friends 325 had Bilstein PSS 9 coilovers which is a lot better than my suspension setup. Since there are no recorded independant tests made for lap times in stock 318's and stock 325's, there is no way anyone can tell which car is actually faster on what track. Reguardless of power to weight ratios, it's a known fact that lighter cars handle better.

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#7 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 11:21 PM
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And all this time, I really thought you had a firm grasp of the concept of driving a car there Auto...

If you are driving a banked oval, then i agree with most of what you said, but even then a heavier car with more hp could feasibly win that race.

Granted weight has a lot to do with how a car performs, but this is generally going to help only those with no horsepower. If you have enough power to offset the added weight, it doesnt matter if one car weighs 3000lbs. and the other 6000lbs.

Suspension and torque are MUCH more important than weight on a track and it is silly to argue otherwise. You say low end torque doesn't matter, how untrue is that!! There again if you are on a banked oval, it might not matter, but on a real track, it would undoubtedly come into play. Exit speed on a tight corner is soley based on low end torque!!! Come on buddy, surely you know this. Even forgetting this, a 325 much less the 328 has significantly more torque throughout the power band.

BTW, many of you may have seen this (I've posted this before), but this should answer many questions. As Prez said earlier, online is not always accurate, but i have confirmed 90% of the following to be fact...{HERE}

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#8 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 12:02 AM
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"but this is generally going to help only those with no horsepower. If you have enough power to offset the added weight, it doesnt matter if one car weighs 3000lbs. and the other 6000lbs."

Wow, that's one of the most misinformed statements I have ever read. I can tell you've never been on the track. Are we talking about drag racing or circut racing? More power would only offset the added weight if I were drag racing. I still don't understand how that increases grip or improves handling.

"Suspension and torque are MUCH more important than weight on a track and it is silly to argue otherwise."

Once again, I can tell you have no track experience or what a track car is all about. I never argued that suspension wasn't important, this is about weight only. You think if you have a good enough suspension system that weight doesn't make a difference? A heavier car will always want to drift more and lose grip while cornering. A lighter car can obtain faster entry and exit speeds in corners.

"Exit speed on a tight corner is soley based on low end torque!!! Come on buddy, surely you know this."

Do you exit a corner at 3000RPM and below? If you do, avoid track driving at all costs! I exit a corner at 5000RPM + and push the car through the corner consistently through those RPM's, tell me where in that equation low end torque comes into play? If you spin out a lot and like to powerslide through a corner, maybe you would need low end torque? But that's not really track driving is it, that's driting. I think your gear ratios would play a bigger role in entry and exit speeds.

Any track driver who is serious about racing will tell you any killer in any great track car is the weight. You drive a 6000lbs 400HP v8 on the track and I'll drive a 3000lbs 200HP car on the track, who do you think will get a better track time? The point is, cars like the M5 were never made to get great track times.

Why is it that Honda's can be modified to be so much faster than the other cars out there? It's all about the weight. The first gen. Lotus Elise only produced 108HP from the Toyota Celica engine. However, it still managed a nice 0-60 in under 8 seconds. I use to drive my 4.7L V8 Jeep around thinking I was king of the road. I laughed at all those Honda's who tried to race me. Then I grew up and I found out there was more to a fast car then just power. I started going to the track more and met a lot of track drivers.

Anyways, I'm going to stop posting about this because it makes me sound like I think the 318 is the greatest car on god's green earth (and I don't obviously). I just wanted to make my point about the 318 not being a bad car. Furious (Mark) will tell you that I think his 325 is fast and I love it. I have nothing against the car at all, except for a few cocky people who own them.

Lets stop with the 318 bashing. I've proved my point long ago.

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#9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 12:10 AM
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I don't like how everyone always compares cars on track. There can be a huge difference in the drivers. Regardless of how much more power this car has, if it's driver blows, the little del sol could still beat him.

Also, a lighter car in my opinion would be a better track car. Less weight straining tires shocks springs brakes etc. Power can only get you so far.

You put a light car in a tight little autocross and it has an automatic advantage over any of the heavy highpowered cars that show up. There's less weight to transision into s curves and switchback turns. The slalom course is a bitch because you can't get on the gas as much as they can or you'll make the car wash out around the next turn.

At the same time, power to weight it was really matters. It's not always how much power you have, it's also how much weight that power has to move.

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#10 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 12:16 AM
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Kevin you're the only person who understands me

I forgot to mention that. Auto-x is very important. When I watch the guys in the M3's auto-x they can't even control their cars properly because of the power, that's too much power and inturn you end up being slower. A lighter car would definitely be more suited towards low speed track/auto-x. It's more dependant on the driver rather than the power of the car.

Don't forget that you can increase power to weight ratio's by reducing weight as well, not only adding more power. Reducing weight is actually the most cost effective way to make a car faster.

Don't get me wrong. I'd rather have an M3 because it's a really nicely balanced car on the track. It has just enough power and just enough grip. M3's were never meant for auto-x, they'd lose to the inferior mini's and 4 cyl BMW's. I've seen it happen too many times. Anyways, I just feel the 318 deserves respect for being a great handling lightweight car. Some people will never understand my fascination with lightweight cars. Most of you just crave power, more POWER! That's fine, because most of you drive on the street and that's all you'll ever need. But I track my car, so I appreciate what my 318 has to offer.

Buying a heavy car then adding lots of power won't make it handle better. Buying a heavy car and lightening it will make it handle better. Thus proves my previous point of how a lighter car handles better and can be faster on short sprint circuts such as the Fabi circut at Shannonville.

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#11 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 11:23 AM
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Bry, in what car do YOU make the fastest lap times? In your 318 or a 325 with the same mods as your car has (same weight reduction)? Also the 325 has a better power-to-weight ratio, or am I wrong?

Once again, I am slower on the track than you, but it is because all mods! The last point to think about: why would BMW built cars that are more expensive, with bigger engines, more HP and are also be slower on a track??

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#12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 11:29 AM
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First off, dont make blind statements about someone's past when you have no idea. I'm no 20 year old that has only raised hell around the neighborhood. In my many years (not gonna say how many), I have racked up plenty of seat time through SCCA events, driving schools, and even spent some time on such world reknown tracks as Road Atlanta.

Second, I think what your doing with your car is great, and with what you have, reducing the weight is the single most cost effective means to make it faster. Not just becuse it doesn't cost you anything, but because you are NOT modyfying the engine in a way that could rapidly decrease its life. So many ignorant people are eager to slap on a forced induction unit of some sort which is just assinine.

I acknowledge your efforts towards making your car a viable track car, but you are simply applying any statements made by others to your car. Take a step back and think for a minute.

Horsepower wil undoubtedly offset weight. That doesnt mean that everyone should have 6000lb racecars, but nobody races a Briggs&Straton 2strokes either. IF it was ALL ABOUT WEIGHT, than why don't most of the racing organizations around the world race 800lb cars with 110hp. That's how it all started out right, with Morgans, Austins, etc. that had very little hp but very little weight as well.

You know why, becuase of faster track times. People realized that they could make BIGGER HEAVIER ENGINES with more hp, and this made a faster car because power to weight ratio is not a linear curve. A larger contact patch, and more elaborate suspension components will certainly compensate for the added weight. You cannot argue against that. It does provide for the ability to overdrive the limits of both of these, but that is where the skills of the driver comes into play.

As far as exit speeds, yes low end toque can certainly come into play. Maybe the few tracks you have been on dont require you to tax your brakes so that you enter a corner at speeds so low this comes into play upon exiting. Or maybe due to the fact that you are working with the hp you are (not making fun, just stating the obvious), you must exit a corner at 5 grand in order to have much acceleration.

And you talk about drifting like it is a bad thing. I dont want to get into this, but a controlled 4wheel drift at speed is what racing is all about. But then again you may never know about this unless you have a car that rewards you for knowing how to use this tool as an advantage not a disadvantage.

As for the rest of your statements, dude those are just weak....

Why so many honda's--Because they are cheap and reliable and there is a shit ton of mods available to any moron who wants to feel like race car driver.

Lotus Elise--Was fast because it didn't weigh anything. And guess what, the new model is out and oh my god, IT HAS MORE HP AND IS HEAVIER, guess it will be a slow old dawg now, huh.

Guys not controlling their ///M3's---Because obviously they have little skill. I have driven e30 and e36 ///M cars on tracks and in autocross events and found them to be very balanced and very easy to stay on top of.

Bottom line, Kevin basically mentioned what we were both debating. Power-to-weight ratio. This is essentially what i was saying earlier about hp to offset weight, and what you were saying about reducing the overall weight of the car to make it faster. So in essence, we are arguing a similar point.

I understand you too buddy, just dont want you to be so entranced by YOUR car, that you forget abot some of the key elements that are universal regardless of year, make and model.

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#13 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 11:54 AM
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Lovely topic, skawful!

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#14 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 12:33 PM
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jllphan wins ...I love my 318i, but it has no acceleration. Everyone made their great points in this post, but did Skaw get all his info? Everyone said something that makes sense.

The late 90s Elise had an acura integra LS engine in it for awhile, making 140hp...wouldn't that make it one of the best cars ever though? The only way we know how any of this would be true though, is if the same driver drives each of these cars for track times, only if the cars are Stock...

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#15 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 01:11 PM
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Thanks, but I'm not trying to win anything. Auto has a very good grasp on what comprises a good race car, i just read my earlier post and it didn't sound very convincing.

More importantly, all of the e36 cars have their pros and cons. I wouldn't bash either car as they are both quite good comparing them to the rest of the pack during their production run.

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