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3-Series (E21, E30) Chat relating to the BMW 3-Series from 1975-1983 and 1984-1991 line. Specific models: BMW 315, BMW 316, BMW 318, BMW 318i, BMW 320/4, BMW 320i, BMW 320/6, BMW 323i, BMW 320i. E30 Family models include: BMW 325e, BMW 325i, BMW 325is, BMW 325ix.

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#1 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 02:20 AM
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J-iX-er is an unknown quantity at this point
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I talked to someone (sharkinfested.com) today who
seems to think that the only performance upgrade
worth the money is the Conforti chip.
He has tested combos of stock exhaust, headers,
intakes, cats, etc. and claims that headers will only
get you a max of 5hp and no gain on Torque. There is
even some evidence that using a chip with headers and
an intake will actually decrease horsepower?
Anyone have any dyno info to agree or disagree with
that?
He also has some proof on his sight that K&N filters
clog very quickly to the point where they are MORE
restrictive than the stock filter.
I know this goes angainst what everyone thinks,
but what do you guys think?
J.
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#2 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 02:49 AM
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as far as the filter goes ,,that is true only if you travel dirt roads alot,,k&n filters being an oil lubricated/soaked type make dirt particals cling easyer then say a normal dry filter,,they can clog fast if driven on many dirt roads but on surface streets they shouldent clog(enough to make it noticable) for at least 500 miles,,being that k&n filters are very cleanable and durible i suggest popping it out every once in awhile(as its not hard to do) and giving it a good old shack and tap,,or the more xtreme air blasting to get the built up dirt out.

all in all if you keep em clean thell out flow any other filter out there

just my 2 cents

as for adding horses,,all parts go hand in hand ,,lets say you buy install a chip and get 25 hp(all numbers just examples) then add headers,cat delete and high flow muffler,,and that adds 8 hp,,now if you only did the exaust without also chipping the car then you may get close to nothing in power gain...intake and exaust mods seperatly do little if not nothing but put allot of little things together and thell add up.....keep in mind that a "cold air" intake and headers can only make a decent difference if a chip is there to feed the engine more fuel ,air change rpm ranges ect..
usally the biggest factor tho is fuel injecters,,you can mod and mod and mod till your wallets empty but stock old dirty clogged up injecters can only flow so much fuel to all those shinny new mods

just because you wear "air jordans" doesnt meen that you can play like him,,you need more energy(fuel) and more muscle

that make sence??

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1973 opel gt little red rocket project
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#3 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 04:55 AM
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..okay
so, what would you suggest.
i have a bone-stock 325i and am planning headers and a cat-bak system.
any way i could, i would , if i can get a better performance.

i am on a budget and this car is definately worth the investment.
but in real terms./dybo tested or close to.
does anyone have a solid plan on what to buy, gain, cost chart anywhere?
this topic arrived just in time.

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#4 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:36 AM
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Do the Big Six AFM upgrade. http://davelength.net/


To be honest Headers are a waist of money at this point. They only become beneficial with major motor mods.

As far as "chips" go add your mods and then have a chip programed with this information. http://bavauto.com has re-programable chips that can be upgraded as you add to your car. But their is a fee involved with re-programing so I suggest doing all your mods and then have a chip programed to match.


good luck

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#5 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 11:17 AM
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First off... Never airblast a K&N filter! You will destroy it. Read the instruction on how to "Recharge" it. The testing was done with normal dus and started clogging very quickly. 500 miles might be accurate. Thats way to often to have to clean the filter.

I am finding out that reprogramming (tuning) your chip after any mod is the only way to insure success.

This means that putting headers on (at least $750) would require a dyno test ($150) and reprogramming ($150). Thats over $100 for 5 or 6 HP? Not worth it.

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#6 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 04:48 PM
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okay, i agree 5-6hp aint much.

but is there a all around magic bullet list?

like the rear diff. 4:10:1 or bigger fuel injectors?


i heard as soon as the cat gets bypasses we gain up to 30 hp, but whats the solid or logical thing to do first.
anyone have a list (of mods-output-price-difficulty) on one page?

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#7 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by idanity@Dec 10 2004, 03:48 PM
okay, i agree 5-6hp aint much.

but is there a all around magic bullet list?

like the rear diff. 4:10:1 or* bigger fuel injectors?


i heard as soon as the cat gets bypasses we gain up to 30 hp, but whats the solid or logical thing to do first.
anyone have a list (of mods-output-price-difficulty) on one page?
[snapback]247581[/snapback]

My CATs been hollowed out....but 30hp???? Maybe 10....Did make a big diff in the low end.

Diff gearing will give you more torque...not HP. Still will get you off and going quicker! But you will lose top speed and rev higher on the HWY.

"5 - 6 hp aint much" It depends on what your willing to pay for it. My opinion...headers are a waist without major motor mods. Reality is you get almost the same gaine by insulating the stock exhaust (Header Wrap) and a CAI (ram) for less than $100,00.

The AFM up grade will run around $250-$300.00. depending on where you get the parts.

Good headers will cost up wards to $700.00 +

do the math....

the magic formula???? read the link I posted...and read as much as you can about these cars and what others have done....then you can formulate your own formula. What I have found is that most of this so-called Bolt-On stuff will give the desired results only set you up to have to dump more $ to make it righ.


Phase one:

Cat Back....450.00
Gutted Cat....5.00
K&N....45.00
CAI-Ram...25.00
Inasulated Exhaust...75.00


Phase Two:

Big Six AFM...250-300.00
Balanced Chip....350.00

Phase Tree:

4:10:1......? ?


My plan anyway.....This should get you beyond the e30 M3.....and get you playing with some e36s.

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#8 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmin'88+Dec 10 2004, 05:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bimmin'88 @ Dec 10 2004, 05:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-idanity@Dec 10 2004, 03:48 PM
okay, i agree 5-6hp aint much.

but is there a all around magic bullet list?

like the rear diff. 4:10:1 or* bigger fuel injectors?


i heard as soon as the cat gets bypasses we gain up to 30 hp, but whats the solid or logical thing to do first.
anyone have a list (of mods-output-price-difficulty) on one page?
[snapback]247581[/snapback]

My CATs been hollowed out....but 30hp???? Maybe 10....Did make a big diff in the low end.

Diff gearing will give you more torque...not HP. Still will get you off and going quicker! But you will lose top speed and rev higher on the HWY.

"5 - 6 hp aint much" It depends on what your willing to pay for it. My opinion...headers are a waist without major motor mods. Reality is you get almost the same gaine by insulating the stock exhaust (Header Wrap) and a CAI (ram) for less than $100,00.

The AFM up grade will run around $250-$300.00. depending on where you get the parts.

Good headers will cost up wards to $700.00 +

do the math....

the magic formula???? read the link I posted...and read as much as you can about these cars and what others have done....then you can formulate your own formula. What I have found is that most of this so-called Bolt-On stuff will give the desired results only set you up to have to dump more $ to make it righ.



[/b][/quote]

have you noticed that after pouring thousands of dollars into performance upgrades the cabrio on davelength.net only gets 181rwhp (estimated 215 crank hp); out of 3.0L's. the chip is the best upgrade when you consider cost over performance gain, but it still isnt that much; ~9hp gain in the midrange and ~3 peak hp. with everything mentioned (big6 AFM, chip, 'intake'/filter, exhaust, headers, larger injectors, etc) you'd be lucky to see 5-10hp increase in peak hp and a possibly 12-15hp max gain lower in the power band. also, a 4.10:1 lsd has absolutely no effect on the engines hp or tq, it simply shifts the road to engine speed relation with shorter gearing. the car will feel different, but wont be much faster.
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#9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 07:57 PM
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a 4.10:1 lsd has absolutely no effect on the engines hp or tq, it simply shifts the road to engine speed relation with shorter gearing. the car will feel different, but wont be much faster.
[snapback]247648[/snapback]
[/quote]

4:10:1 doesnt give actual engine HP or Torque.....but the effects of the lower gearing does = more Torque and no it wont be faster (top speed will be less) but it will be quicker. changing to 4:10:1 alone will make the 325i quicker than the e30 M3. (not faster-Quicker)

181hp to the rears.....215......from 170hp stock...+40hp....Still he has spent a lot of dough for really not much gaine.

I do believe the AFM upgrade would definately be beneficial and its not too costly.

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#10 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmin'88,Dec 10 2004, 07:57 PM
a 4.10:1 lsd has absolutely no effect on the engines hp or tq, it simply shifts the road to engine speed relation with shorter gearing. the car will feel different, but wont be much faster.
[snapback]247648[/snapback]
4:10:1 doesnt give actual engine HP or Torque.....but the effects of the lower gearing does = more Torque and no it wont be faster (top speed will be less) but it will be quicker. changing to 4:10:1 alone will make the 325i quicker than the e30 M3. (not faster-Quicker)

181hp to the rears.....215......from 170hp stock...+40hp....Still he has spent a lot of dough for really not much gaine.

I do believe the AFM upgrade would definately be beneficial and its not too costly.
[snapback]247712[/snapback]
[/quote]

you could be correct in saying that 4.10:1 gearing gives you more power to the wheels at xxmph, but it is wrong to say that a 4.10:1 gives you more power at any speed compared to a 3.73:1. at the top end of the powerband, at a constant speed, a 4.10:1 diff will keep the engine speed around 500-600rpm higher than it would with a 3.73:1, as long as they are in the same gear. now say you shift at 6000rpm, suddenly the 4.10 is down around 5000rpm where as the 3.73 is still pulling at 5500rpm in the previous gear. the m20 has a little more power at 5500rpm than at 5000; therefore, at this speed, the 3.73 has the advantage. this example of course means very little in real world applications, its just to prove that the 4.10:1 is only giving you a slight mechanical advantage and does not change the output, or tq, of the engine. in reality, the deciding factor between which diff ratio is better depends on the track it will be used on because the shorter ratio will not always be quicker, and will not always give a lower top speed because of other variables. concering straight line acceleration for the e30, the 4.10 will be a little quicker from a standstill (if you're already rolling youve lost most of your advantage), and it will have a slightly higher top speed due to the fact that the e30's top speed is drag limited and not rev limited.

i dont understand how you think a 325is with a 4.10 lsd will be quicker than a stock e30 m3. both have getrag 260 transmissions, and both, in this case, have 4.10lsds. they weigh basically the same, but the s14 has 22 more hp, 6 more lb-ft of tq@4750 (peak tq only 450rpm higher than the m20), and a higher redline. the m20's slightly better low end tq will not be enough to overcome close to equal midrange and a big top end power gap, imo.
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#11 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 11:02 PM
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Well I will agree that the JC chip is a good deal on performance.

The best deal is the differential ratio change.

The statements that the ratio change will not make the car faster is not correct.

Torgue wins races and HP sells cars.

The suggestions that the M30 AFM housing or changing injectors will provide a performance increase are not correct.

The m20 is not intake limited and the increase in possible flow is a big nothing.

The m20 injectors are operating at a 65% capacity at the maximum usage and a possble real deal horsepower of 404hp with a 3.0 bar FPR is there.

I have a Dyno and can backup my statements.



My e30 on the Dyno in my driveway.



Later,
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#12 (permalink) Old 12-11-2004, 12:40 AM
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.(thanks mrm3) "the 4.10 will be a little quicker from a standstill (if you're already rolling youve lost most of your advantage), and it will have a slightly higher top speed due to the fact that the e30's top speed is drag limited and not rev limited.."--<span style='color:red'>whats drag limited?

.(thanks KC Ron Carter) "The m20 injectors are operating at a 65% capacity at the maximum usage and a possble real deal horsepower of 404hp with a 3.0 bar FPR is there." im not this smart to understand...

. (.thanks.Bimmin'88) "a 4.10:1 lsd has absolutely no effect on the engines hp or tq, it simply shifts the road to engine speed relation with shorter gearing. the car will feel different, but wont be much faster.
+
My CATs been hollowed out....but 30hp???? Maybe 10....Did make a big diff in the low end...."really want to do this"
+
have to dump more $ to make it righ."</span>

hay thanks to everyone, really answered my question, i pray i didnt take away the thread, but im going to

1. replace my worn-out3.73:1 (to a lsdiff. mine is whinning like bearings going)
2. Gutted Cat....5.00..
3.CAI-Ram...25.00...i can make out of polished aluminum/or/plexi-glas?
4.Insulated Exhaust...75.00, never heard of this but, its worth a try.

then re-clean my AFM every time i do any filter change..should i oil or lube this?


Phase Two:

custom re-upholstery, shave door handles, install air horn, install skid plate.

Big Six AFM...250-300.00..seems complex
Balanced Chip....350.00...
ill take photos and post them too.
you folks are sooo cool.

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#13 (permalink) Old 12-11-2004, 10:53 AM
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thats why there is weight reduction or in extreme case one the biggest increases over chip, exhaust, and headers is drum roll please*brbrbrbrbrbr* TURBO YEAH THATS RIGHT TURBO.

http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/

check it out!!! or

SUPERCHARGER!!!!
http://www.lowendesign.com/
(go to forced induction)


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#14 (permalink) Old 12-11-2004, 12:36 PM
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The m20 injectors are operating at a 65% capacity at the maximum usage and a possble real deal horsepower of 404hp with a 3.0 bar FPR is there.

What are you saying here?
How do you get more out of your injectors?

If you increase fuel, how do you increase air.
I'm not sure what you meant by this?
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#15 (permalink) Old 12-11-2004, 02:44 PM
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I keep reading on Forums, the changing of fuel injectors will provide some performance boost.

The BMW engines are designed to use 65% of the injector capacity at maximum RPM. The M20 injectors are rated to provide fuel enough to produce 404hp.

The o2 sensor controls the fuel flow by varing the fuel injector phasing.

Adding more flow capability, does nothing since the o2 sensor will just phase the fuel flow back to keep the mixture at 14.7 to 1.

Later,
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