Hi, I know there are at least a couple people here who have had the hard start issue. I have replaced: ignition coil, spark plugs, fuel presssure regulator, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pump relay, main relay, air filter and oxygen sensor.
Once started, the car runs great and it gets decent milage. I can easily restart with 15-20 minutes, but becomes hard to start after about 30 min. The really wierd thing is that it starts better when it is cold (20F and colder).
After the car starts, there is pretty heavy gas smell. My latest theory is the injectors are leaking fuel into the manifold and flooding the engine. I am begining to run out of ideas. The car really runs well when it is started, so I have ruled out distributor.
Originally posted by adavis@Mar 24 2005, 06:07 PM Hi, I know there are at least a couple people here who have had the hard start issue. I have replaced: ignition coil, spark plugs, fuel presssure regulator, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel pump relay, main relay, air filter and oxygen sensor.
Once started, the car runs great and it gets decent milage. I can easily restart with 15-20 minutes, but becomes hard to start after about 30 min. The really wierd thing is that it starts better when it is cold (20F and colder).
After the car starts, there is pretty heavy gas smell. My latest theory is the injectors are leaking fuel into the manifold and flooding the engine. I am begining to run out of ideas. The car really runs well when it is started, so I have ruled out distributor.
check your charcole canister those give off a fuel smell when they go bad, i just took mine out and bypassed it and havn't had a problem since. did you clean the icv and MAF?
Not sure what the MAF is, but I did clean ICV. I mentioned the fuel smell b/c I think the car is flooded. It only smells right after starting.
Why would my car start better when it is cold out?
check your charcole canister those give off a fuel smell when they go bad, i just took mine out and bypassed it and havn't had a problem since. did you clean the icv and MAF?
hey, it could have to do with your starter circuit.... do you live anywhere near an Auto Zone??? They do free starter testing... or if you have a volt meter, you could do a voltage drop test across your starter, b/c you could have some high resistance in the heavy gauge power wires going to the starter from the battery. Let me know how it goes...
Originally posted by ae.cowboy@Mar 26 2005, 10:43 PM hey, it could have to do with your starter circuit.... do you live anywhere near an Auto Zone??? They do free starter testing... or if you have a volt meter, you could do a voltage drop test across your starter, b/c you could have some high resistance in the heavy gauge power wires going to the starter from the battery. Let me know how it goes...
I have this EXACT same problem with my 89 325i as well. The starter is fine and has enough power, but I havent changed any relays yet. I was going to change the relay first, but maybe I'll shoot for changing out the canister instead. This problem is so irritating :cry Its also not the injectors, I changed injectors and still had the problem. Also changed out the distrobutor and rotor.. i have new high perf. wires in the mail, lets see if its faulty wiring.
Originally posted by nukeduster+Mar 28 2005, 09:23 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nukeduster @ Mar 28 2005, 09:23 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-ae.cowboy@Mar 26 2005, 10:43 PM hey, it could have to do with your starter circuit.... do you live anywhere near an Auto Zone??? They do free starter testing... or if you have a volt meter, you could do a voltage drop test across your starter, b/c you could have some high resistance in the heavy gauge power wires going to the starter from the battery. Let me know how it goes...
I have this EXACT same problem with my 89 325i as well. The starter is fine and has enough power, but I havent changed any relays yet. I was going to change the relay first, but maybe I'll shoot for changing out the canister instead. This problem is so irritating :cry Its also not the injectors, I changed injectors and still had the problem. Also changed out the distrobutor and rotor.. i have new high perf. wires in the mail, lets see if its faulty wiring.
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your using the bosch super plugs right? the platinums have problems with these cars, im running platinums iv got a little bit of a running problem... prolly that aswell
I had the Bosch plats in the car, but my mechanic said to put the old copper ones in. Something about the older engines not needing the super hot ignition of the new kind of plugs.
I have never heard of the voltage drop thing. Can they do the test while the starter is in the car?
Is the canister in the gas tank? How can this effect the car starting. The gas I smell seems to come from the flooded engine.
nukeduster, let me know what you figure out. This starting thing is driving me crazy. I may end up taking it to a shop to have them diagnose. Every time I buy a new part, I try to convince myself this is why it's not working. This has been going on for 6 months.
Originally posted by adavis@Mar 28 2005, 10:17 PM nukeduster, let me know what you figure out. This starting thing is driving me crazy. I may end up taking it to a shop to have them diagnose. Every time I buy a new part, I try to convince myself this is why it's not working. This has been going on for 6 months.
also, my computer has no fault codes stored. its maddening, and no one i know has been able to determine what is wrong yet, my professor at school who was an electrical engineer for GM for 30 years was clueless since i already had tested everything he knew to test. I also replaced the coil with a stock coil and then upgraded to a MSD blaster coil, and the coil is recieving enough voltage as we did a voltage draw test so i know its not the following things: coil, distrobutor, sparkplugs, fuel regulator, injectors. :wrench
things i have yet to check are charcoal canister if its saturated with fuel, it could concievably cause excess fuel to be dumped into the engine if the engine has sat for a while and fuel vapors have been unable to absorb into it and somehow floods the engine after sitting for 1-5 hours. just a partial explanation of a lengthy theory
the ignition wires should arrive at my house today, so thats the next thing to check.
also the relay may be faulty/corroded so that it intermittently works and also trying to figure out if there is a way to test the temperature sensors for the engine w/o simply replacing it as there is a temp sensor which directly feeds into the ecu for fuel management.
i cant think straight at this time of the morning. :banghead
Originally posted by adavis@Mar 29 2005, 10:37 AM Can you elaborate? How could the idle control valve affect the starting? I cleaned it and the car idles smoothly at 650-700.
its not the ICV, its also not the wiring, although switching to 8mm wiring with all my other performance mods sure made a difference in what the engine runs like, i highly recommend them. but im probably only seeing a difference because i already have +4 platinum spark plugs and MSD ignition.
anyways, more on topic, im going to go for a new charcoal canister, i was going about the physics of the whole problem, and thinking that the job of the charcoal canister is to absorb gasoline vapors, etc etc, and if its saturated, it cant... they have to go somewhere, and i figure it might actually cause some sort of backpressure on the gas lines by having gas from a saturated charcoal canister vaporize and provide negative pressure on the lines. its a little bit more complicated then then, but thats just some thoughts about one complication it could cause. well, at any rate, im ordering a charcoal canister on friday.
Originally posted by adavis@Mar 28 2005, 11:12 PM I had the Bosch plats in the car, but my mechanic said to put the old copper ones in. Something about the older engines not needing the super hot ignition of the new kind of plugs.
I have never heard of the voltage drop thing. Can they do the test while the starter is in the car?
Is the canister in the gas tank? How can this effect the car starting. The gas I smell seems to come from the flooded engine.
the canister is under the hood, its big black and got a line in and out, just follow a fuel rail line too it, take it out and put a joint for the 2 hoses cause you dont need the can
Originally posted by Kowalski+Mar 30 2005, 02:48 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kowalski @ Mar 30 2005, 02:48 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-adavis@Mar 28 2005, 11:12 PM I had the Bosch plats in the car, but my mechanic said to put the old copper ones in. Something about the older engines not needing the super hot ignition of the new kind of plugs.
I have never heard of the voltage drop thing. Can they do the test while the starter is in the car?
Is the canister in the gas tank? How can this effect the car starting. The gas I smell seems to come from the flooded engine.
the canister is under the hood, its big black and got a line in and out, just follow a fuel rail line too it, take it out and put a joint for the 2 hoses cause you dont need the can
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well, by-passing the charcoal canister did nothing for the hard starting, and since it can make you fail emissions by having it bypassed (let alone its illegal and at least in AZ when you get inspected they check the fuel lines for things like that) i'll be changing it back in the morning. next to check the thermostat that connects to the fuel rail
I believe I found it.. :bravo Its the crank position sensor. When it gets hot, its resistence goes wide open and the car produces no spark, but still injects fuel. Hence the fuel smell. Its a documented problem with a number of GM cars, and talking to some techs said that 9 times out of 10 in a situation like that it was the CPS.
Figures, ask someone who has to work on shitty cars day in day out who fix things like that to find the solution.
I'll be updating when I get them swapped out just to make sure, since some of you might not want to go spend the 100$ and not have it be the true root cause.
Its P/N 12 14 1 720 852 just in case people are interested.
I'll buy it tomorrow and install it and hopefully see if it fixes it.
Okay, I got my new CPS in and the engine starts up just fine. When I took out the old one, I noticed that there was a crack in the insulation, and when I peeled back the insulation one of the 3 wires was no longer connected. No more hard start, so far.
Cha-ching. :cheers
Originally posted by nukeduster@Mar 31 2005, 10:23 PM Okay, I got my new CPS in and the engine starts up just fine. When I took out the old one, I noticed that there was a crack in the insulation, and when I peeled back the insulation one of the 3 wires was no longer connected. No more hard start, so far.
Cha-ching. :cheers
Originally posted by ACHTUNG+Apr 1 2005, 08:43 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ACHTUNG @ Apr 1 2005, 08:43 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-nukeduster@Mar 31 2005, 10:23 PM Okay, I got my new CPS in and the engine starts up just fine. When I took out the old one, I noticed that there was a crack in the insulation, and when I peeled back the insulation one of the 3 wires was no longer connected. No more hard start, so far.
Cha-ching. :cheers
one of my professors at school calls it "shotgun troubleshooting"
you just throw so many new parts at the problem that eventually you find the right one. i'm now convinced its the tan and blue temperature senders which connect to the fuel rail. until that doesnt work, then ill become convinced its something else.
though, each part i've tried has had a logical reason as to its replacement. plus, for the most part, i was able to upgrade a part instead of just replacing it.
edit: Did I read correctly....your car hard started again. sorry dude.
Thanks for sharing. Where is the CPS? I want to see if mine has the same symptoms.
Thanks,
adavis
Originally posted by nukeduster@Mar 31 2005, 07:23 PM Okay, I got my new CPS in and the engine starts up just fine. When I took out the old one, I noticed that there was a crack in the insulation, and when I peeled back the insulation one of the 3 wires was no longer connected. No more hard start, so far.
Cha-ching. :cheers
In the case of my car, wasnt the CPS.. or at least the CPS wasn't the whole problem.
On late model 325i's the CPS is a small metal cylinder located to the left side(looking at the front of the vehicle) of the harmonic balancer bolted on with one allen key bolt. On early 3 series there were 2 of them, located on the bell housing of the tranny.
On late model e30's the wire is routed behind some radiator hoses and through a small plastic housing mounted to the front of your upper timing case cover.
Yes, it did hard start, and I am buying 2 new thermostats (the tan and blue ones) today, and replacing those. I'm not sure what OHM readings I'm supposed to get off of them, to test as to wether they are bad or not, but they are only like $30 so I'm just going to do it. I'll update you all later tonight.
@Mar 28 2005, 11:12 PM I had the Bosch plats in the car, but my mechanic said to put the old copper ones in. Something about the older engines not needing the super hot ignition of the new kind of plugs.
I have never heard of the voltage drop thing. Can they do the test while the starter is in the car?
Is the canister in the gas tank? How can this effect the car starting. The gas I smell seems to come from the flooded engine.
the canister is under the hood, its big black and got a line in and out, just follow a fuel rail line too it, take it out and put a joint for the 2 hoses cause you dont need the can
well, by-passing the charcoal canister did nothing for the hard starting, and since it can make you fail emissions by having it bypassed (let alone its illegal and at least in AZ when you get inspected they check the fuel lines for things like that) i'll be changing it back in the morning. next to check the thermostat that connects to the fuel rail
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you guys have to pass inspections? i went through air car and my emissions were next to nothing with the charcole bypassed and cammed up. they just look to see if its leaking exhaust take it up to like 120 and then pass you.
the CPS is a "hall effect switch", it measures how many times a certain spot in the flywheel goes around, and once it senses that your flywheel is moving fast enough, it allows the engine to start. But anyways, your hard starting could be a lot of things, and listening to what you have already stated, it sounds like the problem does not lie in the fuel system, or ignition system. Does it just take alot of cranking to get it started, or does it crank slowly??? If it cranks slowly, you have high resistance somewhere in the starter circuit... (do voltage drop test on power circuit, ground circuit, and control circuit). If it takes a lot of cranking, it could still be several things going wrong. That CPS may not be able to see the marks in your flywheel, aka, your flywheel may be chipped in an important spot... just a couple of things to think about. PS the 8mm wires do not carry any more current through them, than say 6mm or 5mm wires, they just have more insulation around them... personally i think that they are a waste of $$$$ stock wires are fine!
For my car, the engine cranks just fine. It just takes a while to start. After starting there is a definite gas smell. I have not checked to see if the canister is saturated, but didn't think that was an issue.
with a msd high voltage ignition coil and +4 platinum sparks, with stock wires and then changing to the 8mm wires, I did notice a difference off the line. High rpms felt identical but off the line it lunges forward in a bit more of a hurry. dont have any measurements other then seat of pants.. at any rate, i already took a 2 hour lunch and dont think i should risk turning it into a 3 hour, so I dont get to pick up the temperature sensors for my car till tomorrow to test that theory :cry :wrench
I just ran out of ideas. It wasnt any of the therostatic switches. I think this car is just possessed by the devil.
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